Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172154#Comment_122172154

You said he accomplished little and was a failure, now he is a mixed bag.

If Humphreys can even equal his record from a men's 15's point of view he will be a success.

Never mind the 7s men and womens success Ireland has had.

Womens 15s is an issue and it's not a short term fix, in reality the changes been made now should be to help in 10-20 year time

leakyboots

Bundee is an interesting one… just turned 34. It's hard to think he'll be as effective as he can be next season and I feel the trajectory won't be anything else but downwards soon just because of his abrasive style. Maybe he'll maintain his current level of form but I do wonder when looking beyond him… who is going to replace him? He's been comfortably our best centre in recent years

Lowe and him are our physical presence in the backs and both are pushing on (I know Lowe is only 32 soon but he has his health issues). Henshaw has a lot of miles under his clock too. Big Stu is 32 in August.

I just think it makes for interesting pondering in terms of the style of game we play that a lot of the current more physical cabs on the rank are moving towards their twilight years.

Second row, back row, half backs… I think we're well stocked and you can see a decent succession plan with the players coming through. I'm not seeing it at centre (yet)

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172214#Comment_122172214

Deservedly

Dubinusa

He is a failure. He's done some good with 7's. But he never got to his goals. He probably stayed too long. If you all think he transformed the landscape, good. I'd grade him a C.

Dubinusa

Women's success? Are u serious?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172121#Comment_122172121

To me it's similar to the England forward who missed the 2015 world cup to accommodate Sam Burgess.

I suppose it's not possible to say who exactly that was, like with the 7s player Dupont replaced.

Dupont at least played the required qualifiers and could theoretically have not made the squad if he'd played badly. I don't see how Keenan could get picked without having played those same required tournaments but maybe I've misunderstood how that all works.

The Toner situation is not comparable. He was dropped from the WC squad because Schmidt reckoned he'd cop a hefty suspension from a citing that was due just after the selection deadline and Kleyn, who had just become qualified, was the next best choice.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

He was dropped from the WC squad because Schmidt reckoned he'd cop a hefty suspension from a citing 

This was a complete nonsense from Joe, several months after the fact. No one really knows what was behind it but it wasn’t this, he just decided he wasn’t bringing Toner and that was it.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172154#Comment_122172154

You can literally say that about practically anything or anyone in sport or life.

Irish rugby as a whole is in a far better place now compared to 10-15 years ago.

Like, what exactly was he not successful at? By no means has he got everything right, or has every target been achieved, but that's not an outright indication of failure either.

It's easy to fire shots from the sidelines when you don't have to take responsibility for a decision made, or the ramifications of it.

Ultimately a lot of areas of the game are in far better position now compared to 10 years ago. DN, IRFU have made mistakes, got things wrong along the way but have you seen the state of other sporting bodies in this country?

50HX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172195#Comment_122172195

Something else happened there imo

Joe & Dev had words or fell out over something, v v strange at the time

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

Keenan is eligible if he plays in the two rounds of the European grand prix series or whatever rugby Europe call their 7s series these days..

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171780#Comment_122171780

"Irish rugby was really sh*t 30 years ago, therefore we should be happy with failure now"

Pretty lame argument if you ask me

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172657#Comment_122172657

"Irish rugby is at it's best point than it ever had been before"

Pretty strong argument if you ask me.

It's all a matter of perspective and those who are miserable will only see misery.

Former Former Former

Let's look at the IRFU's key targets for men's rugby from 2018-2023. I don't really follow 7s so can't speak to it.

1. World Cup semi-final or better in 2019 and 2023 - let's come back to that…
2. 2 or more Six Nations titles - we won three, including two GS; target exceeded.
3. Consistently be ranked in the top 3 teams in the world; target exceeded
4. Provincial teams consistently in knockout stages of European Cup; target met
5. 2 or more European titles - well, we won one and got to three more finals, I think that's a target met.
6. 2 or more Pro 14 titles - we won five; target exceeded.

So we smashed most of our goals, the assertion that we failed to meet our KPIs is absolute nonsense.

But the World Cup semi-final eluded us. Was Nucifora to blame?

I think for 2019, we can lay some of the blame at his door for sure. It was becoming apparent from 6N 2019 that things were going a bit awry and as Joe took on more and more responsibility on himself, maybe Nucifora should have stepped in to get things back on track. So yes, he missed a step here, but the 2019 RWC was the year after Irish rugby's greatest ever year, so it was understandable that he'd have hoped things would right themselves.

For 2023, we entered the tournament as one of the favourites and justifiably so, and continued to back that up in the pool stages. We had a fit and firing squad that took the field as bookies favourites to dump the All Blacks out. Nucifora's job was to get us prepared for this moment - anything that happened in the subsequent 80 minutes was completely out of his hands so blaming him for that defeat is absolutely insane.

Likewise, the Ireland critics will tell me that the target was two European Cups, not one win and a load of runner-up spots. Again, did Nucifora trot out onto the pitch and make Leinster squander two leading positions in 2022 and 2023?

The guy was an amazing success. That IRFU could keep a straight face while saying we're going to be one of the top three teams in the world was unimaginable to most of us when we started watching Ireland.

That he is so despised in certain quarters and still stuck it out for a decade is just a further indication that he was exactly the man for the job.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

The ban had nothing to do with Toner decision

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172384#Comment_122172384

Jamie Osborne is is 6'4 and a serious unit for a 22 year old, can slot in at 12 or 13. Hugh Gavin looked like a big talent for the 20s too, similar stature. Not sure we have a Bundee type stockier player though

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173131#Comment_122173131

Jude Postlethwaite is 6ft 4in and 100kgs or so too.

Amongst academy players Fionn Gibbons is a huge unit (6ft 4in, 100kgs) but believe he is on the way out at Munster.

I'm enjoying these completely and utterly contradictory views that some individual posters hold:

1. Nucifora has favoured Leinster above other provinces, paid for all their stars, let them have this massive squad etc

2. Nucifora is also somehow responsible for Leinster not winning more European Cups

Clegg

Jasper Wiese has been banned for this tip tackle and is suspended for the SA/Ireland test series.

The Boks will have a strong squad regardless, but I think they're without Kitschoff, Willemse and now Wiese.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1793568949235523958?t=fPUy0fSET9K2zdGtCVjHsg&s=09

Former Former Former

And now Rassie has his ammo for the conspiracy theory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173227#Comment_122173227

Think they're missing Lukhanyo Am too.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173227#Comment_122173227

It's longer than I would have expected to be honest, though the way he adjusts his grip in order to accomplish the feat is fairly damning.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173327#Comment_122173327

Yeah, I agree in that it doesn't look that bad compared to incidents that have received less. I think what does for him is the obvious kind of intent that he appears to have; he genuinely looks like he's trying to hurt the guy and it's just fortunate it didn't end up worse.

He's a dirty player IMO, and think the Boks have better options at 8.

pickarooney

Looks very soft, whether by luck or intention.

Luckily they have the calm presence of Evan Roos to replace Wiese. Or Elrigh Louw, or Hacjivah Dayimani... they're not short of options

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173327#Comment_122173327

John Ryan's recent tackle looked worse but he only got 3 weeks, I assume they looked at their previous records which is something that most would agree with.

ersatz

Nucifora/KPIs…per FFF's list above, that's a fairly expansive set of ambitions for Ireland honestly, and short of the WC semi we've done exceptionally well in the last decade. I like that our (including the IRFU) expectations are that big, it would have been a lot easier for people to cover their arses by being more modest and over achieving which is a more common management style. Fair play to Nucifora, lets hope Humphries exceeds him and focusses on areas that need attention like provincial underperformance, the women's game and grassroots/club development.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

not to be pedantic but, even though he was playing backrow for bath, burgess was playing in the centre for england at the time, so realistically it was a back who missed out, most likely luther burrell. interestingly seeing as he lost out to a league convert, burrell himself went to rugby league briefly a few seasons later as he had been part of the huddersfield giants setup when he was younger

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173561#Comment_122173561

none of those u mentioned will get picked,it will most likely be Cameron hanekom

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173561#Comment_122173561

They have a combined total of 5 caps between them and only 1 of those caps was a start. Still have ALOT to prove to show they can step up and replace an established international number 8.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175027#Comment_122175027

He would've made for a good backrow player if he'd been given time to develop, instead of getting heralded as some messiah

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178437#Comment_122178437

It was England in panic mode because of Tualigi. Ireland didn't cover itself in glory when we went into panic mode after PJ and it was Carbery in the mix then.

TRC10

With the Leinster/Ireland team failing to deliver for the umpteenth time, is it time to rethink how we select our national squads, and select the form players from all 4 provinces, rather than on "cohesion" from a group of players who have proven time and time again for club and country that they can't get the job done when it comes to the crunch?

TomsOnTheRoof

Yesterday's result definitely does lend credence to the suggestion that the national side should be casting a wider net with regards to selection. The Summer tour should see fellas like Hodnett, Haley and Timoney getting capped.

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184858#Comment_122184858

No.

Let's be clear, Leinster lost a final in extra time to the most successful team in European history who are also filled with internationals.

What have the other provinces shown in knockout rugby? Munster were given a big helping hand last year by facing the leinster 2nds in the URC semis. Ulster and Connacht are poor at the moment.

Do you think we'd have beaten NZ in the world cup with a more even split from all 4 provinces?

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184858#Comment_122184858

Who exactly is missing out that shouldn't be?

Ulster might miss out on CC, and connacht are not playing CC next season. Losing finals against Toulouse, La Rochelle, Saracens makes the players bad so let's kick players for Ireland (who have won back to back 6n) from teams who might not even be in the CC next season?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185272#Comment_122185272

Well maybe, if Crowley, who was on the bench got the last few minutes with Sexton out on his feet, we might have.

In case you haven't noticed, Ireland already are using players from the other provinces and seem to win a few games. Yesterday, would someone like Henderson, POM or Beirne have called for a kick at goal instead of kicking to the corner to be turned over, over & over again?

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185272#Comment_122185272

Let's be clear, Leinster lost a final in extra time to the most successful team in European history who are also filled with internationals.

You've conveniently omitted a lot of facts from this statement. Leinster have lost 4 finals in a row, won the competition once in the last 12 years and have failed to win a trophy since 2021 and win likely fail to win one again this season. Perhaps they aren't as awesome as we're constantly told they are.

Ulster and Connacht are poor at the moment.

That doesn't mean that every Leinster player is better than every Ulster/Connacht player, or that there aren't Ulster/Connacht players who have something to offer the Irish team.

Do you think we'd have beaten NZ in the world cup with a more even split from all 4 provinces?

I think it's no surprise that when the Ireland team is made up almost entirely of the team who bottle the Champions Cup every year, that they also bottle the World Cup.

What have the other provinces shown in knockout rugby?

Well Munster have shown the ability to win a trophy for one

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185410#Comment_122185410

Ireland are also a team of almost. It's a perfect storm. The Ireland team is the best players from the best team and unfortunately, they are lacking. There's a hump they can't get over but, selecting lesser players from the other provinces is not the answer. Fortunately, there's a glut of u20 lads from this generation that look like they have it.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185428#Comment_122185428

Talking about u20s is a bit of a stretch in terms of ireland. They're not going to be ready for some time

Being very reliant on one teams players isn't the answer especially if 50/50 calls go to players from that team. Sometimes just other voices can be a good thing even if a slightly better option is the leinster player

Hank the DJ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185272#Comment_122185272

Few things to address here,

A team littered with Internationals, what exactly is the Leinster team then?

What have Munster shown in knockout rugby? Winning a cup with all the games away from home.

An even split? Doesn't have to be an even split it just needs to be the 50/50 calls don't always go the way of the Leinster player.

Ulster and Connacht are poor at the moment, doesn't mean they don't have players good enough.

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185455#Comment_122185455

1. I never said leinster didn't have as many internationals.
2. Do you think munster would have won the URC if they'd faced the 1st string leinster team in the semis?
3. Which players from other provinces who aren't already being picked for Ireland are actually better than their leinster counterparts?

Henderson has been poor for Ireland in his recent appearances and has a load of Ireland caps. Timoney has never performed for Ireland when picked. Stockdale, Baloucoune and Hume are all out of form.

Hodnett and Coombes are just not as good as VdF and Doris.

Bundee and Hansen are consistently picked ahead of Leinster players.

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185272#Comment_122185272

Using that logic both Aki and Hansen wouldn't be in the national team and we'd be far poorer for it.

Munster went on an unbeaten run last year away from home. Leinster fans constantly complaining about how it was their seconds who lost is about as graceless as you can get and one of the main reasons for the lack of magnanimity and support from fans of other provinces.

The reality is that Leinster have failed in their biggest games over the last half decade. The Irish side has had a similar issue at world cups and more recently with the grand slam game against England. Given that a very large portion of the national team is made up of Leinster players it seems reasonable to suggest that there is an issue with mentality there. The introduction of fresh faces would be a positive step in the eyes of a lot of supporters and reward players from other provinces who's form merits a call up, including those with recent provincial silverware.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185586#Comment_122185586

We beat Stormers in the final, if you have ire with how Munster won the URC take it out on Leinster.

Munster played Glasgow, Leinster & Stormers away from home in two knock out games and a final. We won all three.

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185587#Comment_122185587

I never said Bundee and Hansen shouldn't be starting. I'm using it as an example that if you are the better player you will be picked. They are both better than their leinster counterparts.

Is it any less graceless than munster fans et al flooding forums to piss off leinster fans any time they lose?

I'm not denying at all that there is an issue with leinster not performing in finals. But losing to toulouse in extra time in the European Cup final is not a good reason to axe leinster lads from the Irish team when they are the best in their position. Do you honestly feel any of the other provinces would have done better yesterday?

50HX

If a player is consistently in form for provence then he should be looked at internationally starting with camps obviously.

I don't like the way some players & let's be honest its mainly Leinster wider squad players that I refer to are jettisoned into irish camps.

Osbourne as an example, plays 3 urc games in 2021& is brought into wider irish squad

Its April this year b4 he starts a knock out match for his club...ffs

Why not have brought in Frisch who had played 30+ times to the same period for Munster.

Sam prendergast is another....can't get a meaningful start with Leinster yet still pandered to & brought into irish camps

Earn the right to get called up not oh you might have potential we will look at you.....horseshit imo.

By the way Osbourne &Prendergast are good players & it's a shame they are not getting more club time..see what they are made of

How is prendergast ment to not believe in the hype around him if he keeps being treated like this, you are not ready, you need to bulk up,you might be the best yet someday hang around & it'll come good.

Max Deegan is a classic example of a good player with limited ambition. He knows as we do he won't be a back row starter for leinster yet quite happy to sign a contract to be in the wider squad.... I x CC game in 2 seasons.

I thought all players wanted to play matches

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185587#Comment_122185587

The introduction of lesser players is not the answer either. It should be gradual with any changes. Bringing in Munster players is not the answer either. It doesn't matter if they beat Leinster B, players like Coombrs have had opportunities and failed. If any Munster lads should get a look it should be Ahern/ Hodnett. From Ulster it's McAnn and Timoney. Timoney is a good player and I think is undervalued here.

Dubinusa

Deservedly so.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122185741#Comment_122185741

But losing to toulouse in extra time in the European Cup final is not a good reason to axe leinster lads from the Irish team 

You're very dishonestly making out that this is all a knee jerk reaction to one loss. It's not. It's a reaction to them losing 4 finals in a row and failing to get past the quarters in a World Cup which they were favourites for. This group of Leinster players have consistently shown that they don't have the minerals to get over the line in the biggest games, and it's perfectly valid to question whether the Ireland coaches should continue to favour Leinster "cohesion" over quality players from the other 3 provinces.

Clegg

You only ever show up after a loss and never actually offer anything new other than the tired tropes.

The Leinster players are the best we have. If you don't like it, tough.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122186325#Comment_122186325

 it's perfectly valid to question whether the Ireland coaches should continue to favour Leinster "cohesion" over quality players from the other 3 provinces.

This idea that players get picked becase of "cohesion" is entirely a social media invention. It's absolute nonsense that collapses under under the least scrutiny.

We pick the best players, nothing more.

The idea that we should drop players who lost a European final - purely because they lost that final - and replace them with players who've never gone beyond a quarter final - because by definition, they haven't lost a final - is curious logic, at best.

Maybe we should just continue to pick the best players, whoever they may be and regardless of which province they play for?

VayNiice

..