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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #20132
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,713 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145119#Comment_120145119

    There used to be an employee of the IRFU that posted here way back, he often dismissed the stats that we saw/used because they were at odds to what he'd seen from the Irish camp - often times these were final whistle stats too. I'm sure these stats are much improved once the match reviews are done and all stats collated.



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    #20133
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145438#Comment_120145438

    Ireland play a dynamic game with a lot of moving the ball away from contact, fixing the defender and then trying to make sure there's quick ruck ball etc.

    You could equally say similar about Leinster, yet they saw fit to bring in Jason Jenkins this season. A player who started the season brilliantly, yet has averaged 3 passes a game for Leinster.

    And if hands were so important, Ross Molony would've seen gametime for Ireland last season. (For example, I'm not sure how happy we'd be with a second row of Beirne and Molony going up against, say, England in the 6 Nations?)

    Fwiw, I've absolutely no issue with McCarthy getting selected ahead of Kleyn (he's got enormous potential). And part of the reason I'd like to see Kleyn involved is because I think he received some poor treatment from some quarters when he was called up for the RWC, so I'd be delighted for him to be involved again.

    (Also I'm not sure your stats on Kleyn are completely accurate?)

    Post edited by aloooof on


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    #20134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149415#Comment_120149415

    It's a fair comparison with Jenkins albeit this is club rugby standard and he trains week in week out with Leinster and not just the week before an international tournament.



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    #20135
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149415#Comment_120149415

    You could equally say similar about Leinster, yet they saw fit to bring in Jason Jenkins this season

    Leinster and Ireland have completely different and independent sets of coaches. What Farrell et al want for Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with what Cullen/Lancaster want for Leinster.


    And if hands were so important, Ross Molony would've seen gametime for Ireland last season.

    Oh come off it. Doesn't pick Moloney, we appeal to authority. Doesn't pick Kleyn, that very same authority is wrong. Moloney is a decent provincial level pro, he's not an international.



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    #20136
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149578#Comment_120149578

    Absolutely nothing? I'm not sure about that.

    Of course their selections are entirely independent, but I'd say there are large overlaps with what Farrell wants and what Cullen/Lancaster wants tbh. What from the following would you not say about Leinster?

    Ireland play a dynamic game with a lot of moving the ball away from contact, fixing the defender and then trying to make sure there's quick ruck ball etc.

    Also on this:

    Oh come off it. Doesn't pick Moloney, we appeal to authority. Doesn't pick Kleyn, that very same authority is wrong. Moloney is a decent provincial level pro, he's not an international.

    Where exactly did I say he was wrong not to pick Kleyn?? Clue: I didn't.



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    #20137
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,176 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149415#Comment_120149415

    It doesn't really matter what Jenkins does or doesn't do. He's signed for a purpose for Leinster. But he can pass the ball also. He might average 3 passes a game but there are matches where he has passed it 5 or 6 times also. He's capable of playing that role. Again, Kleyn has 2 passes in 262 minutes of European rugby according to the EPCR site: https://www.epcrugby.com/player?PlayGuid=JK725498

    Jenkins (which is neither here nor there) has 3 in 54 minutes. If Jenkins was in contention for Ireland, he would be relevant.

    Ross Molony would be in the team if hands were everything but obviously they're not. If there are more rounded options who can handle the ball, carry over the gain line and compete in the physical stakes, they'll be preferred. And that's who Ireland have selected.

    Kleyn is having an excellent season. I'm just giving what I was see as fairly clear and stark evidence that suggest he doesn't fit the Irish team style. Nor am I advocating for McCarthy. He's a great prospect but he needs more game time at provincial level for me as his discipline continues to be an issue. You can be great but if you're going to conceded 2-3 penalties almost every match, I don't think you should be selected.

    If we're looking at a young player with a high ceiling who has a rounded game, suitable to the Irish style, I'd advocate for Niall Murray to be included. He has been excellent this season. The only drawback is that he might need another 3-4kg of muscle on him.



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    #20138
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149714#Comment_120149714

    This is where the stats sites fall down; EPCR site has him down for 2 passes and 11 metres carried in those games. The Munster site has him down for 5 passes and 41 metres carried.

    (Still not massive passing numbers, and I accept if we had stats straight from Munster, they wouldn't be through the roof. His tackle numbers on both sites are fairly consistent, and really impressive).

    But fwiw, going by the Provincial sites, Jenkins averages 3 passes a game, Kleyn 2.3. It's not an enormous difference.

    There's obviously also things that you don't see in the stats like maul d (Munster's was excellent on Sunday vs a big Toulouse pack) and the latch for the try.

    I don't think it's any great travesty that he wasn't picked. But I also don't think it'd be undeserved if he had managed to get selected. That's all I'm really saying.



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    #20139
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's not the only place where stats fall down. Leinster arguably have a lot more go forward / front foot ball so putting width on the ball against a retreating defensive line is an option that Kleyn likely doesn't have with the same frequency. Kleyn spends a lot of time cleaning up dirty ball into contact at or behind the gaineline. This is not going to create a decent stat picture, but if Munster start punching more holes with the likes of Snyman returning then I think we'll see a different picture from Kleyn.



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    #20140
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    There is no point in comparing Kleyn to Jenkins. You might as well compare him to a fish or a birthday cake or some lawn furniture for all the relevance it has to Ireland selection.



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    #20141
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150048#Comment_120150048

    You really think that's a reasonable comparison to what's actually being discussed, and adds value to the conversation?



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    #20142
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150006#Comment_120150006

    I'd agree. I'd also wager Leinster, on average, have more possession, which goes some of the ways towards explaining Kleyn's higher tackle counts. Factor in further stuff like minutes played (and possession in those minutes) and it just makes the stats all the fuzzier.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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    #20143
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150137#Comment_120150137

    Wh-wh-whatabout Leinster doesn't add any value, is the point. We're not talking about Leinster, it's a different team with a different set of coaches, and it's a player who is not eligible for Ireland.



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    #20144
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,457 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Kleyn, Molony or Treadwell, don't think there is much between any of them and I'd still favour the younger guy with more potential every day.

    No mention of development players in this squad, maybe when they get back from Portugal they'll add one or two, but I'd like to see Niall Murray in the camp.



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    #20145
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150202#Comment_120150202

    Wh-wh-whatabout Leinster... 

    Mod: Don't be a dick.



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    #20146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150202#Comment_120150202
    image.png

    ..



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    #20147
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    McCarthy being there is no different to Crowley being there or Harry Byrne before him. He is not the 4th best lock in the country as things stand anymore than Crowley is the 3rd best outhalf. Both have huge potential but are far from the finished article.



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    #20148
    Must love hardship
    Registered Users Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    If injury struck sexton between now and the world cup who takes over as captain?

    For Fiji Furlong was given the honour but POM, Ryan, Henderson and Ringrose were rested for that game.

    For the Australia game when Sexton pulled out I think POM was captain for the day.

    But if you go back to the last 6 nations POM only started 2 games and In an extremely competitive position isn't a guaranteed starter this year.



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    #20149
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151110#Comment_120151110

    Not a particularly big deal imo, one of POM, Ryan or Ringrose. Plenty of leaders in the squad.



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    #20150
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151128#Comment_120151128

    I don’t know why everyone assumes Ryan would be a good captain. He's a good player and would be a great leadership character on the field and in training. But the captaincy role involves loads of media and all that guff. Ryan doesn't look like he'd thrive in that environment at all.

    I always think he's a player who wants to focus on the job on the pitch and that's it. He's experienced now so he can be a leader in the pack and be a great leadership figure, but I think captain wouldn't suit him at all.



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    #20151
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭TRC10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151789#Comment_120151789

    I don’t know why everyone assumes Ryan would be a good captain.

    I think that's a bit of a strawman. I don't think they do. Leinster and Ireland clearly don't as they've both replaced him as vice-captain with Ringrose and POM respectively.



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    #20152
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,474 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120131226#Comment_120131226

    Lol. I think that’s the first time Ive ever read that it’s a shame Italy got better. No pleasing some people.



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    #20153
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120150006#Comment_120150006

    Particularly minor point to add too (and possibly one for the Munster thread), but Kleyn's highest number of passes in a game is 6 vs the Bulls. That was on the day where we fielded out heaviest back-5 of the pack this season in Kleyn, Edogbo, Beirne, POM and Coombes. I don't think that's a coincidence.

    (He had 25 tackles that day too).

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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    #20154
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152227#Comment_120152227

    There was a benefit to having an easy game in the competition, so in some regards its a negative and in some its a positive, but then again Cardiff is the new rome.



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    #20155
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120152478#Comment_120152478

    We’ve only won there once since 2015.



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    #20156
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120151829#Comment_120151829

    Ryan does the lineout calling.


    Often the lineout caller is assumed to be a leader. He makes important decisions about the lineout and is consulted by the captain before deciding whether to kick a penalty of kick down the line.


    Personally I feel that Ryan is definitely a leader but there are plenty of leaders in the team and giving one of the others prominence would be better imo.



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    #20157
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    Ringrose has been primed for the captaincy for years. He’s the go to for Leinster more and more.

    POM is the only other likely candidate for Ireland but may not be as nailed on a starter enough to take over the role.



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    #20158
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,091 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Ryan captained every team he played on AFAIK. I don't know much about his media training but that's a trivial aspect as far as I'm concerned. It's not like Ringrose or Sexton have any real media presence beyond throwing out a few bland platitudes.

    Furlong, POM and Lowe are about the only media friendly players on the team.



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    #20159
    kuang1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭kuang1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154251#Comment_120154251

    And if this man ever makes it to the Irish camp, he should be put in front of the media every week!

    https://youtu.be/sRdgcUzDh80




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    #20160
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,989 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Think I counted four f bombs there

    "Some craic" alright



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    #20161
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,091 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Honestly is there anyone who's actually offended and not charmed by that kind of interview? Give me that any day over "we knew it would be a tough game, they're a serious opponent, we're delighted with the result" after a 50-0 pasting.



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