rsa supporting e-scooters

CramCycle · 25-01-2023 9:00am

You can't win though, thats not far off the speed I might reach on the quays, I go in the bike lane and I am a danger (I wouldn't weave in and out but DLRCC sent an email around ot cycling clubs asking them not to use the bike lane along the coast, which I highly doubt any were using or going fast in so just someone having a perception and giving out). I go in the bus lane you have people screaming blue murder about the money spent on cycle lanes as they either sit in heavy traffic that I don't affect or they overtake while breaking the speed limit. The scooterist, like me, is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not saying I agree with their speed in the bike lane but I wasn't there so won't comment on that but if they stayed on the main road, somebody would get irate, pinch them off or similar, while they take a video to whatsapp their friends as they eat their breakfast or evening roll depending on the time of day.

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 9:02am

Picking on people eating now.

magicbastarder · 25-01-2023 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154360#Comment_120154360

would be interesting to see a comparison between the stopping distance possible on a bike doing say 40km/h and a scooter doing the same - and how manouverable they are under heavy braking; which i suspect is not much in either case.

Seth Brundle · 25-01-2023 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154333#Comment_120154333

This particular person was weaving in and out between cyclists at a high speed. It was dangerous behaviour. They Should be in the car lanes at that speed and properly insured. Or off the road altogether.

50km/h is high speed? How would insurance make them travel safer?

as I said I’ve no issue with the 25 km/hr scooters. Would welcome more of them. And more dedicated road space for everyone not in cars or taxis.

At what speed does it become an issue for you? I'd usually travel parts of the quays on a bike at between 30 and 40km/h. Is that too fast?

magicbastarder · 25-01-2023 10:01am

i have no issue with the opinion that scooters capable of doing 50km/h should require insurance. that's proper moped speed.

the converse of the argument would be that mopeds shouldn't thus require insurance.

Seth Brundle · 25-01-2023 10:12am

Oh neither do I but this perception that it suddenly makes travelling at that speed safe is nonsense.

I'd be more concerned that travelling on tiny wheels at that speed has the potential to not end well for the scooter-ist rather than a third party.

Cabaal · 25-01-2023 10:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154528#Comment_120154528

Not only the tiny wheels but I suspect the brakes may not be as good as disc brakes on a bike.

CramCycle · 25-01-2023 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154406#Comment_120154406

Not sure about stopping distance, I imagine a bike to be slightly better with more contact area but it's very case by case. As for manouverability, I imagine that this is speed dependent, at low speeds I imagine a scooter to be more so with it switching to favour a bike at higher speeds , more due to twitchiness in steering of small wheels but again, case dependent

CramCycle · 25-01-2023 10:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154491#Comment_120154491

A moped weighs alot more than a scooter, bikes and scooters are at least comparable in weight. On the same note, there does need to be a line drawn somewhere for non human powered vehicles, just like there is with ebikes. If there isn't then it just becomes a race to who can go the fastest. Insurance or tax won't stop that but at the very least it will put some people off and give Gardai powers of arrest and make a conviction easier.

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154593#Comment_120154593

Again sorry to labour the point.

All these eScooters are currently illegal. Other than the odd case, the Garda ignore them.

So its illogical to give the Garda powers which they already have, thinking it will change anything.

Varik · 25-01-2023 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154544#Comment_120154544

Depends on what you're comparing, the cheapest of the cheap will be just a rim brake on the rear and that's it. But same could be said for bikes, at least there it'd be 2 rim brakes unless it's a young kids bike where it might be just the one.

Mid range will be disc brakes so it's down to the rotor size which would generally be large compared to the wheel 120mm on a 11" wheel. That could be up to practically the full rim size. Then you're looking at front and back linked disc brakes.

Add in regenerative braking on top of the mechanical and then ABS isn't a big jump as the controller is already tracking wheel rotation.

magicbastarder · 25-01-2023 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154593#Comment_120154593

again, just to satisfy my own curiosity, i checked out how much electric mopeds weigh. i found one weighing 81kg; significantly more than an-ebike, but combined with rider, you're probably looking at 150kg total, vs ~100kg for cyclist and bike, so not madly significant.

i suspect the example i found was very much at the light end of the range, though.

Macy0161 · 25-01-2023 11:01am

Far more chance of buyers looking for legal scooters than now where they're always sold "only for use on private property".

Closing times aren't strictly enforced in pubs, lets ban drink? Speeding isn't enforced on cars, lets ban cars?

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154684#Comment_120154684

Vast majority of breaking effort on most vehicles is a on the front wheel(s). Something like 80-90%. Because thats where the weight acts on.

Obviously you can choose to only use the rear brake.

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 11:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154700#Comment_120154700

Who is suggesting that?

traco · 25-01-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120153418#Comment_120153418

Germany - insurance required. Also see reg plates or something on the uber ones around Munich

https://www.bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/light-electric-vehicles-faq.html

Not sure how up to date this is but an overview of regs in European countries

https://futuraride.com/electric-scooter-laws-europe/

fits · 25-01-2023 1:55pm

“At what speed does it become an issue for you? I'd usually travel parts of the quays on a bike at between 30 and 40km/h. Is that too fast?”

Of course you know that the answer is situation dependent. But often yes it would be too fast.

Former road biker here too btw. Had to sell it after a shoulder injury and I pootle into work on the Dublin bike so I don’t get too hot.

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155453#Comment_120155453

Saying its "required" for eBikeis vague and unhelp, and really blogs that offer an opinion rather than facts should be checked.

I was testing to see would anyone bother to go look it up. Only some eBikes in Germany require these things.

https://www.simplegermany.com/cycling-rules-in-germany/#Rules_For_Motorised_Bicycles_E-Bike_and_Pedelec_In_Germany

loyatemu · 25-01-2023 3:41pm

this thread has degenerated into pointless back and forth arguments, yet again.

Does anyone know what the latest on the actual legislation is, and why it's taking so bloody long?

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156245#Comment_120156245

I don't see why looking for facts rather than opinions is pointless.

The current legislation is they (e-Scooters) are illegal.

AFAIK new legislation. (open to correction)

The Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 will introduce a new category of vehicle in the 1961 Road Traffic Act, powered personal transporters, or PPTs.

The bill, which is currently passing through the houses of the Oireachtas, will regulate the use of specific types of PPT, such as e-scooters, on public roads.

Why so long. No idea. Apathy maybe.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/start-ups/e-scooters-ireland-legal-status-delayed-2023

magicbastarder · 25-01-2023 4:16pm

i suspect the fact that ryan's ministerial brief is so wide-ranging, doesn't help.

he's the minister for transport, and the minister for the environment, which is a slightly amusing dichotomy.

Flinty997 · 25-01-2023 5:02pm

He had a piece in the times the other day.

inigo · 26-01-2023 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154261#Comment_120154261

Before Xmas I drove alongside a scooter on the N11. We were doing 70kph! They were on the cycle lane. At least they were wearing a full motorcycle helmet, thank God! 🙄

inigo · 26-01-2023 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156245#Comment_120156245

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2021/128/

Del2005 · 26-01-2023 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154491#Comment_120154491

50km/h is motorbike speeds, mopeds are <45km/h.

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 2:25pm

They accelerator much faster aswell. No Honda 50 that's for sure. Amazing how how far the tech has come.

In a country with severe traffic congestion it's just staggering they are so inept at putting legislation in place.

Grassey · 26-01-2023 2:34pm

(wrong thread)

Paddigol · 26-01-2023 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160273#Comment_120160273

There's one girl who I've seen on the N11 on one of those high-powered ones. She was drafting a bus on one occasion.

inigo · 26-01-2023 3:01pm

I ride a scooter on that same cycle lane (maxed at 25kph). The amount of holes and debris! 70 is simply suicidal.

CramCycle · 26-01-2023 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160513#Comment_120160513

I often draft buses on the N11, I wouldn't fancy doing high speed on a scooter along it though, I just can't see it going well if it brakes hard or you hit one of the many ridges/crevices.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160637#Comment_120160637

There are one or two stretches where if the wind is behind me I stay out of it as I'd be going to fast to safely use it.

ted1 · 26-01-2023 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148111#Comment_120148111

they don’t really take a car off the road. They take people off public transport or there feet.

ted1 · 26-01-2023 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154491#Comment_120154491

How big are moped wheels ? Where is the centre of gravity on a moped ?

if you hit a small kerb on a moped , it’s a hell of alot more forgiving than on a scooter

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161230#Comment_120161230

I've read that before too.

But lately I've read some reports with more optimistic out comes.

https://cyclingindustry.news/40-neuron-e-scooter-journeys-replace-car-journeys/

Del2005 · 26-01-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161469#Comment_120161469

So the majority of their customers, 60%, are moving from public transport or walking/cycling that's not a good.

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161491#Comment_120161491

If it got me off my miserable overcrowded train that's a win in my book.

inigo · 26-01-2023 6:51pm

They do in my case and a few more that I know.

It would be interesting to see more studies on this.

Thargor · 26-01-2023 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161230#Comment_120161230

Anecdotal but in my workplace which is a large factory complex on the edge of Limerick city they most definitely have replaced cars for a lot of people, especially females. Girls don't really want to cycle but they seem to prefer the scooters. We're having to build more bike sheds because of it, that's definitely cars off the road.

CramCycle · 26-01-2023 7:02pm

Just to be clear, so long as they aren't moving towards car transport, getting people off PT and into scooters isn't a bad thing. It's not the aim but all it does is create more space on PT for others. Loads of people on my train have scooters, there journeys are too far but a number of the short hop ones are a number of spaces on PT for other users.

26-01-2023 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120153855#Comment_120153855

Yes. It is a legal requirement because in the event of an accident caused by you (or a third party) whoever is NOT at fault will be compensated through the insurance for injuries/damages/both.

So if someone’s acting the bollox on an escooter or a bike and they crash into me and damage my car why should I have to claim on my insurance? That’s my point.

If you’re going to use a scooter or bike on public roads (where 4 year olds should not be on their bicycles & in any case a child wouldn’t be liable it’s their parents) yes you should be required to have valid insurance in the event you cause damage to someone’s property. Or what if they’re not paying mind hit someone walking and hurt them?

Who said also it had to be prohibitively expensive anyway? Most people are happy enough to pay €120+ a year for insurance for their iPhone or smart watches right? So why not for their bike. I’d buy insurance for a bike tbh if it got robbed or damaged I’d be covered. Same goes for the scooters.

Do I think they should have licences, tax, etc? No. Do I think if you’re using a public road and liable to cause damage or harm to someone or their property? Absolutely.

magicbastarder · 26-01-2023 7:53pm

at best, it's going to be a $50 to a $5 problem. if the administration costs alone didn't outweigh the actual payouts, i'd be astounded.

it'd act as a barrier to cycling, at a point where the government are trying to get more people on their bikes. it'd be a massively retrograde step.

ted1 · 26-01-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161938#Comment_120161938

Most people are not dumb enough or happy to pay €120 a year for phone insurance

insurance is compulsory for cars because the damage they do is beyond the means of most drivers.

bikes don’t do expensive damage so it’s not an issue

magicbastarder · 26-01-2023 8:00pm

i once hit a car (from behind) on a bike at probably 25km/h; the amount of damage done was of a level that the driver waved it off.

if i did that driving my car, it would have been thousands to fix. an economic writeoff of the other car anyway, given its age.

26-01-2023 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162057#Comment_120162057

that’s what you think. Gadget insurance was worth nearly $60bn in 2021 with the expected growth of close to $200bn by 2031. Of course that’s pennies compared to the car insurance industry sitting at over 1.1 trillion globally by 2027 if it continues its current growth. But still to be 1/4 the size in around the same amount of time means people certainly are buying gadget insurance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162046#Comment_120162046

Yes maybe so and that’s why it doesn’t exist. But I just can’t be arsed with cyclists who try to side step the fact car drivers are NOT the only ones who can cause accidents or damage to property/people. But as well as insurance for motors being required to compensate a third party if you cause an accident etc, it protects you if your car is stolen. I’d buy insurance for my bike if possible to protect against possible theft. If that means I’m also covered on the off chance I cycle into someone’s car and cause damage then that’s just gravy.

I’m not a big fan of this car vs bike craic anyway but it pisses on my cornflakes when it’s the average motorist being treated as if they’re the only cause of accidents. I see as many cyclists breaking traffic laws as I do motorists.

cletus · 26-01-2023 8:10pm

The difference between the phone insurance analogy and the bike insurance you are proposing, is that the phone insurance is an optional payment .

With regards to motorists not being the only ones to cause accidents, it's really the cost of those accidents (including lives) that's important here

26-01-2023 8:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162119#Comment_120162119

Yes but my point being people are happy enough to pay what they consider a reasonable fee to insure their device against loss of money due to loss, damage or theft.

Equally if you wish to use a bicycle as your main mode of transportation why would you be opposed to a small fee to insure your bike against damage or theft? or protect yourself if you’re liable to foot the bill for damage to someone else’s property?

I just don’t get the pushback but whatever.

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161938#Comment_120161938

Because it hasn't worked (for bicycles) anywhere else. (that I'm aware of)

For eScooters and the faster eBikes they are effectively motorbikes. In other countries those rules are enforced.

Whereas Ireland...

https://www.mibi.ie/mibi-news/level-of-uninsured-driving-in-ireland-problematic-.1997.html

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 8:34pm

Also...

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/gear/smartphone-ireland-use-insurance

..and...

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/phone-insurance-a-waste-of-money-experts-say-26773888.html

cletus · 26-01-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162123#Comment_120162123

Some people are happy enough to pay for phone insurance. There are ads on YouTube for bicycle insurance, so I'd imagine some people are happy enough to pay for this too. There you go, bike insurance sorted.

Unless your contention is that bike insurance should be mandatory. In which case the phone analogy doesn't hold up, and we're back to costs again

magicbastarder · 26-01-2023 9:10pm

I see as many cyclists breaking traffic laws as I do motorists.

that does undermine your argument though; if it does happen at that rate, and it was causing issues, it'd be a much bigger problem.

and by all means, you're more than welcome to get public liability insurance for yourself; many people do insure their bikes against theft but it's very rare that that also insures the cyclist in a public liability sense.

are there any jurisdictions where cyclists are required to have cycling insurance?

Paddigol · 26-01-2023 9:14pm

I just can’t get my head around the inability of so many people to understand the fundamental need for car insurance. It’s nothing to do with who breaks more ROTR. It’s nothing to do with who uses the road. It’s nothing to do with numbers of users. Someone with better googling skillz than me can run a comparison of the economic cost to society every year of RTAs caused by motor vehicles every year versus those caused by cyclists. That’s not even taking into account the much greater but incalculable cost of human suffering. It’s nothing to do with “bikes v cars”. How is it that hard to understand the basis for insurance? Ditto ‘road tax’.

rsa supporting e-scooters

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