rsa supporting e-scooters

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 9:19pm

Not entirely sure why people think there is a need to drag bicycles into a thread primarily about eScooters. Or every other thread

These are tired old arguments usually unresearched.

Flinty997 · 26-01-2023 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162386#Comment_120162386

If you mean those who don't pay it. I don't think it's because they don't understand.

Thargor · 26-01-2023 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162386#Comment_120162386

Its incredible, there are people who spend all day everyday arguing for it on social media like Twitter and boards. I honestly think they are the stupidest and most incapable of critical thought on the whole internet, more stupid than Trump supporters or climate change deniers or anything else you can think of, I just cant get my head around it either.

CramCycle · 26-01-2023 10:59pm

Car insurance is compulsory because the damage caused by motorists who cannot cover the cost of very specific accidents is more than society is willing to bear the cost of. Every motoring fatality costs us close to a million and that's from a few years ago. Insurance was brought in, in many countries because bringing people to court for a cost they could never cover was beyond ludicrous and cost even more money.

If scooter accidents go this way, then it will happen for them but hasn't happened elsewhere. Same for bicycles.

At this point in time, insurance for cyclist will cost more in administration than it would save the state. That is a a fact.

I am actually a few IQ points lower for having read some of the stupid, ignorant sh1t here over the last few minutes.

I'm starting to think a general intelligence test is needed before either driving a car or posting on the internet because there is clearly an issue with both.

ted1 · 26-01-2023 11:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162090#Comment_120162090

Forget about the cause of accident and look at the value.

a bike hitting a wall at 20 k. Will bounce of it, a car will knock it down

ted1 · 26-01-2023 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162232#Comment_120162232

any cyclist in a club or a member of cycling Ireland has insurance. Member ship is €50 a year https://www.cyclingireland.ie/get-involved/membership/

Thelonious Monk · 26-01-2023 11:29pm

they bang on about insurance and helmets because they hate people who use bikes and want to make it harder for people to just jump on a bike and go somewhere. there's nothing more to it than that.

tomasrojo · 27-01-2023 1:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163044#Comment_120163044

Ian Walker said something very similar. Probably is some truth to it.

Macy0161 · 27-01-2023 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161491#Comment_120161491

If it's off PT, as others have said, that's not necessarily a bad thing. One of the most common excuses for not using PT in Dublin is capacity/ "they're too full".

zell12 · 28-01-2023 8:37pm

UK police received complaints

https://twitter.com/GlosPolSpecOps/status/1619244887999758336?s=20&t=MLnzrei6lOl4M2ns4EAXtA

Thelonious Monk · 28-01-2023 8:57pm

That is so f**king ridiculous. Much like in Ireland, the police here totally ignore motorists driving/parking on footpaths but they have a problem with this adorable scene.

Thargor · 29-01-2023 2:44am

Getting slaughtered in the comments at least.

AlmightyCushion · 29-01-2023 10:42am

At one point the car is doing 5mph and is still catching up to the scooter. Seems like a ridiculous decision

magicbastarder · 29-01-2023 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162405#Comment_120162405

meant to come back to this point - i think it's somewhat relevant in the sense that insurance for e-scooters could be used as a trojan horse by the sort of people who want bikes to be insured, and regulated more than they are now.

i doubt it'd be likely to succeed, the government aren't going to bring in reg plates and mandatory insurance for cyclists, but there's a crossover in the arguments.

inigo · 30-01-2023 12:36pm

Committee Stage in the Seanad (stage 8/11) this Wednesday at 3pm. 🤞

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/seanad-schedule/?selecteddate=2023-02-01

zell12 · 09-02-2023 5:57pm

It is understood the man was travelling on the e-scooter along the Burrin Manor cycleway at about 9.40pm when he hit a bollard and fell.

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2023/0209/1355727-carlow-electric-scooter/

ExoPolitic · 16-02-2023 10:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176939#Comment_120176939

Once again it was not heard in the Seanad...

inigo · 17-02-2023 8:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247272#Comment_120247272

I thought it did? I read a transcript.

ExoPolitic · 20-02-2023 12:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251439#Comment_120251439

Apologies, I was reading from an outdated source.

The report stage was dated for the 7th of February, did that happen?

Henry Ford III · 22-02-2023 1:42pm

So as it currently stands e scooters etc. are still considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles requiring tax, license and insurance (which can't be had)?

Just checking.

magicbastarder · 22-02-2023 1:46pm

there's been no change enacted in legislation yet, so yes, they're still legally MPVs.

i've not seen any reports of gardai stopping anyone and confiscating them on that basis in many months though; i have heard of idiots being assholes on them and attracting garda attention, but they're paying no heed to normal users.

Macy0161 · 22-02-2023 4:18pm

I work in the city centre - the gardai literally watch them (and throttle ebikes) go past, like every other road traffic offence.

Henry Ford III · 22-02-2023 4:30pm

I can issues down the line with e scooters etc.

1/. Liability. There will inevitably be collisions with pedestrians and injuries too. Who pays?

2/. Compliance. The 25kph limit sounds reasonable but electric motors are quite easily modified, and one scooter that's limited for 25kph looks identical to another that'll do two or three times that speed.

3/. I've seen these machines being routinely driven on pavements. Without even enforcement of whatever regulations are enacted it'll be a mess. Early signs aren't good - Gardai are seemingly turning a blind eye to e scooters etc.

Macy0161 · 22-02-2023 4:57pm

They're already in widespread use - presumably by people less concerned with breaking the law than those waiting for the legislation. There's no evidence of the "inevitable" collisions and injuries, similarly with point 3. And I'm not convinced there's an increased risk versus "normal" bicycles, or skateboards, or rollerblades etc tbh.

Point 2 applies to any motorised vehicle? If not sticking to speed limits was a reason to ban a vehicle, there'd only be bicycles left!

magicbastarder · 22-02-2023 5:04pm

re point 2; if someone is clearly doing more than 25km/h, it's reasonable to then confiscate unless the owner is fully paperworked up.

but that would depend on garda enforcement; they don't enforce speed limits in general in the city, for vehicles weighing many multiples of the scooters, so i don't expect they'll be speed checking scooters.

CramCycle · 22-02-2023 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275690#Comment_120275690

Same as happens in any situation with an accident, it is sorted out between the parties if nothing serious. Realistically, with the exception of the few outliers, this will actually not be a major thing if all other rules are enforced. The person deemed to have caused the accident will pay.
Same as any speed limited vehicle for a zone, if the gardai catch you over the limit, then you are fined or it is seized presumably.
And this is the same as any road traffic enforcement, enforcement is minimal, that's why so many motorists don't bother taxing, many don't even bother insuring. Most of my neighbours have a yellow reg car as their second family car but that's not exclusive to the countryside, I see parents dropping off their kids on the N11 with their yellow reg land rovers. You had the acting garda commissioner a few years ago saying speeding wasn't a thing because they weren't catching many people, I see lads booting it up the bus lane daily on the N11 to skip traffic. Phone use while driving is endemic.

The truth is that the majority of scooters are commuters, doing no more than 20kmph and basically acting like bicycles. Those speeding, if there is enforcement will be caught but if there is no enforcement then they would do it anyway.

Henry Ford III · 23-02-2023 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275855#Comment_120275855

1/. Trouble is that the e scooter has no reg. plates, and by it's nature it would be very easy to just scoot away in the event of a collision with a pedestrian. Furthermore even if the e scooter rider remained at the scene they may have no ability to pay for damages. They certainly won't have any insurance cover.

2/. The fact that a limited e scooter looks identical to a modified one is a problem. Gardai would stop an obviously illegal car irrespective of speed. The e scooter is therefore wide open to illegal modification, and that will only increase risk.

magicbastarder · 23-02-2023 1:00pm

the irony is that a scooter capable of doing greater than allowed would be illegal, no matter what speed it was doing.

but a car capable of breaking the limit is only illegal when actually breaking the limit. (yes, i know it's the driver breaking the law there, not the car)

to be fair, there's supposedly automatic speed restrictions in cars since the middle of last year, but you can see an inconsistency in a small vehicle being capable of doing say 35km/h is illegal by its very nature, but a car capable of 300km/h is fine until it actually is captured going faster than the limit.

anyway - to make the point in another way, let's say you have a scooter capable of doing 35km/h - what could or should the punishment be? in this hypothetical scenario, you've a tiny vehicle capable of going 10km/h over the limit. a fine for a motorist driving a vehicle weighing much, much more than the scooter, for exceeding the limit, is i think €160 and three penalty points. should the punishment for using a scooter beyond the limit be proportionally smaller?

for the sake of the hypothetical scenario, i reckon a typical scooter & rider combo would weigh less than 100kg, and a motorist & car combo, about 1,500kg.

CramCycle · 23-02-2023 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278566#Comment_120278566

I have been hit and knocked by a taxi running a red light in the middle of Dublin, even with a car make and model, rough time, partial plates, apparently nothing there to stop him just driving off leaving me lying on the road so the reg plates thing isn't a thing, people will either stop or they won't. Reg plates large enough to be readable won't be attachable to a scooter adn the cost of implementing such a system wouldn't cover the cost of the state would pay out in healthcare through the HSE.
That's the same with any motor vehicle. Like all vehicles, it's if the vehicle gets caught in the act.

Your main issue here is that there are not enough Gardai to enforce the law, so the new rules will do little to change what is already happening. So far though, what is happening is not the worst thing in the world.

Macy0161 · 23-02-2023 3:19pm

And I still come back to the cohort who may get one in the future are probably more likely to stick to the law anyway, given they're holding off until they are in any way legal to use on the public road. I can speak for myself in that I am holding off converting a bike to ppt until I have confirmation what I will do will be legal.

Seth Brundle · 01-03-2023 10:55am

The ETSC (European Transport Safety Council) of which the RSA are a member have proposed the following:

the use of helmets should be made compulsory
a minimum age of 16
a ban on the use of e-scooters on footpaths
a ban on users carrying passengers

https://www.thejournal.ie/e-scotter-speed-limits-helmets-age-limit-6006838-Feb2023/?utm_source=shortlink

(Don't read the comments which propose high-viz, licences, driving tests, insurance, etc.)

Macy0161 · 01-03-2023 11:39am

Interesting they propose helmets, when I don't think ETSC propose them for cycling?

Also, rolleyes at the journal - they actually propose a minimum size rather than a reduction (it'd be an increase on most I see).

It suggests there should be a minimum wheel size of 30.5 centimetres on the devices as research had shown there was increased stability with large wheel sizes when going over potholes.

loyatemu · 01-03-2023 12:01pm

I've never ridden one but my impression is there's a higher chance of "taking a header" on a scooter than on a bike due to the wheel size and body position. OTOH if they become mandatory on scooters it's only a matter of time before the usual clammer starts for the same rule for bikes.

Seth Brundle · 01-03-2023 12:06pm

I presume the helmet proposal is due to this...

They showed that both a rider and pedestrian were likely to suffer severe injuries in a collision with an e-scooter travelling at 20km/h, with the pedestrian more likely to suffer fatal injuries.

Studies estimated that collisions resulting in injury are up to 10 times higher for e-scooter riders than cyclists.

...

The ETSC said the number of casualties from collisions involving e-scooters were underreported but studies to date had shown 20-50% of casualties attending hospital had suffered head injuries with very few riders wearing helmets.

In addition, a majority of riders were involved in single vehicle collisions, while intoxication of e-scooter users appeared a problem.

While I think the idea to make the minimum wheel size to 30.5cm makes sense in terms of being able to overcome road defects, etc. it will make e-scooters less portable and therefore affect their attractivness.

Schorpio · 01-03-2023 1:28pm

I'm sure injuries from e-sccoter collisions are under-reported, but I'd wager that 20-50% would go down if reporting increased.

If a person sustains minor injuries doing something (technically) illegal, then they aren't likely to be honest about how they got those injuries. Serious injuries will likely be observed at the scene.

(20 - 50% also seems like a huge variability in the study range).

CramCycle · 01-03-2023 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120301106#Comment_120301106

It's one of those ranges that shows the dataset is either too small or too varied between areas that nothing can be really taken from it. Much like on a bike, if I have a minor injury, in my head its not really an injury unless it impedes me from something else, I imagine many scooterists are the same.

Cabaal · 01-03-2023 2:22pm

I would agree with min age, not riding on footpaths just makes total sense but I'm not in agreement on passengers and helmets.

magicbastarder · 01-03-2023 2:27pm

AFAIK a bicycle is only legally allowed carry as many people as there are seats on the bike, in the UK. i wouldn't have much issue with the 'no passengers' rule.

Macy0161 · 01-03-2023 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120300816#Comment_120300816

I wasn't suggesting it was a good thing, just that the sub-ed's hadn't properly read the report. Again, I don't see the ETSC proposing banning Brompton type bicycles, so why do it with scooters?

Until they are clear on what injuries there actually are, cause of injuries/ accidents and the state of the people involved, it doesn't seem they really have the evidence to back up their wish list. If you're intoxicated to the degree you don't have control of your bicycle you can be arrested - you just extend that to scooters/ ppt's.

tomasrojo · 01-03-2023 7:36pm

Brompton wheels are about 35-40cm in diameter though. Easily meet the minimum mentioned here.

Thelonious Monk · 01-03-2023 9:05pm

That Journal article had all the predictable comments, sigh. It truly is amazing how often people are nearly hit and then shouted at for being in the way while on footpaths by scooters or bicycles.

Macy0161 · 02-03-2023 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120302543#Comment_120302543

It was more the instability comparison of a brompton/ foldable bike compared to 26/27.5/ 700cc size wheels. They're more unstable, but their not looking for extra regulations on those types of bicycles over an above standard bikes, but are versus scooters. I just don't really understand why so many are so against scooters and trying to put blocks on their use. As mentioned, one of the advantages of the scooters is the portability - minimum wheel size is making them less useful. At a time we're supposed to be encouraging PT/ Active/ Non-car travel. If they take more vehicles off the road, it's making the roads safer!

Paddigol · 02-03-2023 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305979#Comment_120305979

Agree re pushback against eScooters. But not surprised - as a cyclist I'm used to being able to spot disdain disguised as faux-concern - "where's your hi viz... why aren't you wearing a helmet... the cycle lane is there for your safety".

And as with the disdain for cycling as a form of transport and leisure activity in this country, the obvious solution, if we were to take the apparent concerns seriously, is to improve the infrastructure. Why are we not asking ourselves why the road surfaces are so appalling, potholes never fixed, cycle lane infrastructure so disjointed, cycle lanes so badly designed and even more badly maintained, errant parking tolerated, dangerous driving almost rewarded?

I've virtually zero interest in acquiring a scooter, but having used one as a tourist visiting friends/ family in Berlin, I can attest to how useful/ what a great resource they are in an urban environment. And when using them, on numerous occasions, over varying distances, I've never once had a hairy moment with traffic, never once been left wondering where I should be going/ what lane I should be in, never once been abused (or even given a second glance) by pedestrians. It has always been a great experience, so helpful for getting around the city, saving huge amounts of time, taking up almost no space. A really laid back, easy way to move around.

Yet here, the way people bang on about them, you'd swear they were the new vehicle of choice for knife-wielding, drug-taking, handbag-snatching Hells Angels. And all the Govt. are doing by failing to legislate for them is fanning the flames of outrage, making life for the Gardai almost impossible and allowing a black market in what will inevitably be illegal models to prosper.

AlmightyCushion · 02-03-2023 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120302844#Comment_120302844

I'm very pro cycling and scooter usage but I have been nearly hit by them a few times. It does happen frequently enough that it is a problem. Don't think I have been shouted at by any one doing it though. They shouldn't be on the footpath in the first place but if they are gonna do it they should go slow and give pedestrians a wide birth in case the pedestrian does something unexpected. It's what I do when I run past people because some times people turn abruptly, take something out of their pocket, take a bag of their back or whatever and if you cut close to them as you go past while they do that you run the risk of clattering them. Same with drivers driving past cyclists and only leave an inch between the wing mirror and the handlebar. A sudden gust of wind, small bump in the road or any sort of a wobble and the cyclist could clip the wing mirror and get milled as a result.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2023 7:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306539#Comment_120306539

Same with drivers driving past cyclists and only leave an inch between the wing mirror and the handlebar. A sudden gust of wind, small bump in the road or any sort of a wobble and the cyclist could clip the wing mirror and get milled as a result.

Just a minor point of clarification but the cyclist would not be the one doing the clipping.

AlmightyCushion · 02-03-2023 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306774#Comment_120306774

Maybe it's a case of semantics but regardless it doesn't really matter as the driver is still fully in the wrong because giving feck all distance between the bike and the car is the ultimate cause and problem.

Paddigol · 31-03-2023 3:37pm

Balanced enough discussion here...

E-scooters: a tale of two cities as London and Paris plot different paths | Travel & leisure | The Guardian

Paddigol · 03-04-2023 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424172#Comment_120424172

Going... going... GONE!

Parisians vote to ban rental e-scooters from French capital by huge margin | Paris | The Guardian

Given that they work fine in other cities, maybe it's the perfect example of how the problem is not with the object, but with the people using them.

Anyway... it's too early on a Monday morning for me to get worked up enough to go on a rant...

Flinty997 · 03-04-2023 11:21am

Well we don't have to ban them as they aren't legal. Govt like it does on many issue seems to plan on dragging this out so long in effect nothing happens.

magicbastarder · 03-04-2023 11:29am

i was in berlin in november, and in parts of the city, the rental scooters were like litter. obviously it was not peak season, but it struck me that the various companies did not do demand management very well; and surely it'd be in their interests to keep the unused stock under cover and protected rather than leaving them out in the elements and subject to damage.

rsa supporting e-scooters

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