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I am Proud of Being a Conspiracy Theorist

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    And if he were queried on any holes in his theories would he have tried to figure them out, or complain about being picked on and ignored the questions?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So that sounds very much like science is attempting to come up with answers for the gaps in their theories.

    They are not getting annoyed with people noticing the holes and running off to complain about getting picked on. They are acknowledging the holes and trying to solve them.

    Conspiracy theorists on the other hand ignore the holes in their theories and pretend they don't exist.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    If you want your conspiracies to hold any water then you need to fill in the holes. None of the holes that get queried on this forum are ever particularly tricky to spot and really shouldn't take much for the conspiracy theorists to attempt to fill them in even slightly... Rather than running away complaining about being picked on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Hold on a second. The Cambrian explosion is not a hole. While the causes of the Cambrian Explosion remain a topic of open and exciting debate, the continued fossil discoveries from the Cambrian and Precambrian Eras are bringing more clarity to the evolutionary puzzle. These fossils provide valuable insight, particularly for envisioning the common ancestors of diverse groups. For instance, both vertebrates (fish) and echinoderms (sea urchins, starfish) are part of the group called deuterostomes. Without fossil evidence, it is hard to envision what a common ancestor would look like for these very different creatures.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    You'll have to explain the point you are trying to make a bit clearer. Are you saying that science is deliberately hiding information from us about the theory of evolution?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    no I haven’t. You said there was a hole. Fossil evidence shows there isn’t.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Running away complaining about being picked on.

    Who's running away complaining about being picked on ?

    Are there people being picked on ?

    Who's picking on who?

    Now we have a conspiracy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    The fossil proof shows they did. More than likely through the evolution of vision. This certainly isn’t a hole.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Well why didn't you say that then rather than being vague?

    Science has tools and budgets at their disposal, and they use that to fill in the holes in current scientific knowledge. But this also happens with people doing science that do not necessarily have access to those tools and budgets, but they follow the same scientific methods.


    Conspiracy theorists make zero attempt to explain their theories and just throw out vauge suggestions to which they have given absolutely no thought as to how what they are trying to suggest would actually happen, then when queried on those really simple to notice flaws in their ideas they get in a huff.


    You don't need a big science budget to spot the flaws in conspiracies about JFK, 9/11, faked moon landings, or covid. Why can't conspiracy theorists just come up with a most basic of thinking behind their theories?

    There is far more thought gone into the reasoning behind Harry Potter than we've ever got out of any conspiracy theory on these pages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭silliussoddius




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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    I'm not posting here to gain approval from conspiracy theorists. I am merely interested in their theories and how they came to them, yet they refuse to let anyone know any details about their theories.

    Why do conspiracy theorists spend so much time posting about things other conspiracy theories on a conspiracy theory forum?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Stephen Meyer is a creationist (rebranded to "Intelligent Design")


    He's member of the pseudo-scientific "discovery institute" and it's exposed below




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So would you then claim that there is something yet to be figured out in the science?

    Or that science knows something and is conspiring to lie to everyone about it?



  • Administrators Posts: 13,838 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    @robinph you've made your point - and the thread is going around in circles. As mentioned multiple times across the forum, if you keep asking the same question and are not getting the answer you want it's time to move on from asking the question.

    @ Cognitive Dissident you've already been warned about name calling. Next instance will result in a week forum ban.

    Post edited by Big Bag of Chips on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    He is a creationist, and he is a member of the "Discovery Institute" (a religious organisation masquerading as legitimate science)

    "The Seattle-based Discovery Institute, America's tiny but loud voice for Intelligent Design, is once again trotting out their thoroughly discredited argument that good science education requires that our public schools "teach the controversy." America's public schools should present the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution, as well as alternative explanations for our origins. They charge that academic freedom demands that teachers be encouraged, or perhaps even required to present both sides of any scientific controversy: "At Discovery Institute, we advocate teaching the controversy about evolution. That is for several reasons. Students should learn the full range of evidence on evolution. Teaching the controversy aids in developing critical thinking. And it trains students to think like scientists."

    "The call to "teach the controversy," despite its appeal to intuitions about fairness, rests on an abysmal confusion about both science and science pedagogy. It is, in fact, nothing more than a calculated political strategy to hide the real agenda of the anti-evolutionists -- namely to get evolution out of the public schools."

    "For starters, the "controversies" they want to teach don't even exist. In their minds the possibility that the earth is 10,000 years old is an open question, even though geologists settled that one in the 18th century. They still think that Adam and Eve were real people and Noah may have rescued all the animals in the ark -- claims settled in the 19th century. But most of their energy is spent promoting the idea that Darwin's theory of evolution is implausible nonsense or, at best, a controversial theory with widespread scientific dissent."


    Personally I don't have any big issue with creationists, religious people often have beliefs that the world was created by their God (or Gods). The issue with "Intelligent Design" and specifically this "Discovery Institute" is that it's intentionally deceptive, it relies on pseudo-science to trick people into thinking it has a legitimate scientific case, which is all part of the organisations agenda to reflect "politically conservative fundamentalist evangelical Protestant values."

    Below is one of their internal documents which was leaked, their manifesto, makes for an interesting read to say the least

    Like a conspiracy..



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,197 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Are you saying the parents need for comfort outweighs the health needs of the child, and the health system’s responsibility to provide the correct medical treatment?

    Would you be comfortable with parents dictating to Doctors what treatment they feel is better for their sick kids? Do you not think there is a knowledge imbalance?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭silliussoddius




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You put his name into a Google search and then quoted from the first few search results.

    Nope, unfortunately already heard about him (and his cohorts) before.

    One of the sources I provided is themselves, an internal document. Outlining their own religious and anti-science agenda.

    Probably the most entertaining debunk on the group is the scientist I linked previously, in his videos he dismantles their "science" and exposes the grift. Below are links to his expose's of the other Discovery Institute figureheads

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRxq1Vrf_Js - Casey Luskin

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVQGQz-0Xeo - Michael Behe

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFPHvvJWVAk - Gunter Bechley

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SixyZ7DkSjA - the first of several on James Tour, an utter crank

    If anyone has time, I highly recommend any of those videos

    As for the conspiracy angle, as mentioned this has all the unmistakeable hallmarks of a conspiracy, a conservative religious think-tank basically posing as a "scientific institute" with an agenda to attack evolution using pseudo-science and get it out of US schools.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I missed most of yesterday's discussion seems it was a doozy.

    I see Stephen Meyer has been trotted out as the anti-thesis to Darwin's theory of evolution on the basis that there are holes in Darwin's theory.

    The primary issue here, is that rather than shape a theory to fit the evidence that Meyer et al, feels contradicts Darwin. That they focus on fitting the evidence to the scaffold of creationism/intelligent design and then try and promulgate it as science.

    It's fundamentally unscientific to approach evidence with a conclusion already determined and that's precisely what the Discovery Institute and its affiliates do.

    There is nothing at all wrong with poking holes in Darwin. Where the problem arises is in rather than developing a theory that addresses any flaw in Darwin with a proposition supported by rigourous research? That the "new" theory is deliberately fitted to a creationist scaffold. That's deliberately contriving their research to fit their ethos. It's dishonest and at odds with the scientific method.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    I once encountered a poster who seemed oblivious to the idea that the findings of FUNDED research could possibly be at odds with the associated scientists' personal opinions.

    Think expert witnesses in a court case - the opinions of the prosecution's expert witnesses tend to sit, all nice and cosy, with the prosecution's contention.

    Ditto, the defence.

    Ya gotta independently sniff each case.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    It's a fair point. The source of funding and the purpose of any endowment body should be considered in any balanced review of a study.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Put forward something as true, get shot down by groupthinkers and then later be proven correct.

    Anyone, anywhere can claim anything as true. Putting forward a "Truth" requires it's being evidenced as so by evidence.

    The issue with many in the CT forum, is that there is a belief that saying something makes it true.

    Veracity is not a matter of trust or faith. It is a matter of evidence. Be it physical, testamentary or experimental. That evidence is subject to test, review and scrutiny.

    Without evidence?

    There's no theory, there is someone telling a story and rounding it off with "trust me bro".

    Much like your continue stance that the scientific method depends upon abductive reasoning. Were the scientific method wholly reliant upon philosophical reasoning? You would have a point. It isn't though, the practical sciences are wholly dependant upon practical proofs and repeatability of experiments and their verification by others.

    There is no greater joy in scientific circles than disproving an axiom. It's a quicker path to fame and scientific noteriett than nodding along because someone made a good argument.

    Science isn't based upon good philosophical points. It's based upon repeatable and provable and verifiable points. Theories aren't absolutes, they are the very best understanding of the evidence available. New evidence? Can and has disproven widely held theories, across a range of fields from linguistics, to archaeology and into the physical sciences.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    If you read, I would suggest Gelentners essay:

    It's Gelernter, and it's simply an unsourced book review of Meyer's pseudo-scientific book. The Claremont Review of Books is a right-wing think-tank (note the trend)

    Interesting observations here of Gelernter's views from another computer scientist.

    Also Gelernter leans towards climate change denial, doesn't like women working in jobs and all the usual red flags.

    Berlinski.

    David Berlinksi is an anti-evolution member of the Discovery Institute

    Their ideas are supported by the math.

    Pity they aren't supported by evolutionary biologists and anthropologists

    The common denominator appears to be religion and the Discovery Institute



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Why would you assume that anyone is "punching down"?

    Interesting that now rather than defend the veracity or robustness of CTs?

    That is now a case of certain posters are punching down on a cohort of posters who are seeking to enjoy "harmless stories, in the spirit of fun and interest, that allow people to discover the hidden truths and power hierarchies of the world."

    Either they are stories? Or are you alluding to them being allegories if a truth hidden? A special and secret knowledge that boards own group of potential Nobel laureates are determined to silence?

    To use a little of your abductive and wholly unevidenced reasoning...

    If suppressing a truth could win anyone on boards a Nobel? Imagine the kudos that would accrue to anyone within the CT community who could present the evidence to overturn that pervasive consensus? That creationism is true? That Mossad wired WTC to explode or that Sandyhook or a.n other school shooting is fake.

    Surely the same incredulity you apply to what are "accepted" theories or consensus should also apply to those theories the mainstream deems incredulous? Or is your aim solely one of contrarianism?

    Edit

    Fixed "novel" to Nobel in 2nd paragraph.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Their central ideas are extensively rebutted and refuted and shown to be pseudo-science in the videos I linked. They are lengthy, you may not want to watch them, but for anyone else interested I recommend them.

    Indeed, however conspiracies can also be harmful and have real world effects. Qanon, Sandy Hook, medical conspiracies, climate science denial, etc.

    And it can be argued that could extend to religious and conservative groups creating deceptive scientific bodies to push religious agendas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    So no discussion, ascribe to wokeness and smugness that which you don't like. The question of what I'm doing here?

    Is engaging in discussion, trying to understand the evidence behind what are often at 1st glance outlandish claims. To see if any truth does underpin what many hold as unshakeable tenets of belief.

    Yet despite that? In all the time I have frequented and engaged in the CT forum? I've yet to find that evidence.

    Now if I was to go along with an earlier comment made here. I should really be approaching CTs as a folklorist or social historian. Although if that were the mode in which CTrs wish to post? Then surely, creative writing is the best place for such theories unless/until someone is willing to discuss the evidence on which their hypothesis hinges?

    Why are you here? What brings you to the CT forum other than "anti-wokeness"?

    Edit

    I forgot to address your comment on your experience of the internet before it got all commercial.

    I can only frame that response within the context of your 1 year old username. Unless of course you've had previous handles here? List them and let's see if we've spoken before, my own boards handle has been on use since 2007. So I'm not sure if you feel that is pre? Or post commercialisation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Never inferred that math was pseudoscience. These individuals from the institute are engaging in pseudo-science by promoting creationism as a legit science. There's a definite amount of deception involved in it. This kind of crankery happens, there are historians out there who e.g. deny the Holocaust, scholars who believe the world is flat, engineers and architects who believe 9/11 was an inside job. They all use similar (red flag) techniques, use technical jargon and word salad to bamboozle lay-people, logical fallacies, questionable methods, dodgy analysis, you name it.

    Because they are experts, certain people trust them. Whilst ignoring or dismissing the thousands of experts who state otherwise (with overwhelming evidence)

    A computer science or maths degree doesn't automatically make someone an authority on evolution biology.

    If you are on the fence about this stuff, you can check on the science forum. If you've already made up your mind there's nothing I, or any links I post or millions of scientists can say which will change your mind, in which case these posts are just for the benefit of other posters who might be reading this stuff



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,014 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    So asking someone to back up their claims is now "wokeness".


    Fuckin hell. 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Yep. And used in a zealous defense of their religious beliefs. It’s almost as if they want their beliefs to have some special privilege, a bit pc if you ask me.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,594 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    "the insufferable requests for evidence"

    Its great banter. Claiming something incredible and then getting all snotty when asked for evidence to back it up.

    Its bog standard garden variety conspiraloon behaviour.



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