DF Commission Report

Larbre34 · 12-09-2022 12:22pm

Why would it be, the long serving Officers and Men are well settled in Dublin.

Where did this talk of Custume becoming Army HQ come from anyway, surely Dublin makes most sense, or at the very least The Curragh and the flexibility it offers.

Larbre34 · 12-09-2022 1:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606101#Comment_119606101

This is the most salient point you've ever made.

jonnybigwallet · 12-09-2022 2:49pm

I couldn't have put it better myself.

roadmaster · 12-09-2022 3:01pm

If you are to go by the Leonardo website the Air Corps Operate AW139Ms

Larbre34 · 12-09-2022 3:12pm

We do not.

The M version is rigged for weapons payloads and strengthened for combat service.

We operate the bog standard AW-139 MLH civvy that might serve an oil rig or as an executive transport or air ambulance.

roadmaster · 12-09-2022 3:43pm

Leonardo even have a picture of a 105 getting a lift by the air corps for the brouchere

roadmaster · 12-09-2022 7:34pm

The 139s as is are perfect for internal security work. But if they ever did deploy overseas they could buy a few proper military spec for the over seas missions and use the standard ones for the donkey work at home

Manic Moran · 13-09-2022 2:10am

FWIW...

https://www.afgsc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3139404/irish-air-corps-visits-20th-air-force/

https://www.boeing.com/defense/mh-139a/index.page

Being used for, for lack of a better term, internal security. Replacing Hueys.

roadmaster · 13-09-2022 7:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610480#Comment_119610480

Why did the USAF go for a none US Design?

Manic Moran · 13-09-2022 2:15pm

It's not unusual, see the UH-72 Lakota which is an EC-145. The rule is that it has to be built locally, so in this case, Boeing got the license.

24-09-2022 4:15pm

I sense increasing unease on Twitter about any progress on the report. Any word on the implementation plan? Cabinet reshuffle when Taoiseach changes in December.

Larbre34 · 24-09-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119659682#Comment_119659682

Twitter is a bit like having a wife. To be taken in small doses and only half seriously.

The implementation plan is the implementation plan, its as it was when published in July.

Budget 2023, being announced this coming week, is the first big test of commitment to it, when the Government puts it's money where it's mouth is - or not.

There is good and bad to this budget scenario. The Government has a running surplus of about €4.5 bn and its been widely flagged that they intend to borrow another €2 bn to fund growth and ease cost of living demands on households.

With numbers like that flying about, will an increase in Defence allocation of 2-300 million cause much of a stir, especially as its already been telegraphed?

The answer is probably yes, among the usual suspects and no, among the general public, who have also seen plenty of evidence of Defence Forces deficiencies this year.

Lets wait and see....

sparky42 · 24-09-2022 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119659753#Comment_119659753

I’d say €200 million would be at the upper end of what we could expect tbh, unless there’s been far more cabinet backing for defence spending than what we’ve seen so far. That being said even that much given the small budget we have right now would be an improvement, hell considering past where we’ve seen only low double digit increases any triple figure is a bit of a step change.

roadmaster · 24-09-2022 8:16pm

Well the budget this year we more towards better T&Cs for members than equipment purchases or a bit of both?

Larbre34 · 24-09-2022 11:55pm

If they don't start the budget allocations now, they might never get the chance.

They can easily begin addressing some of pay and conditions issues as well as allocating capital funding for the primary radar, awarding design engineering for the MRV class and whole heap of the 48 actions 'accepted' by the Government.

roadmaster · 25-09-2022 9:52am

Leonardo could be getting a call next week!

jonnybigwallet · 25-09-2022 12:56pm

Quite agree Doh. No point in kicking the can down the road for another 3 years.

roadmaster · 25-09-2022 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662464#Comment_119662464

Ah the Fiats just are not as good

sparky42 · 25-09-2022 7:40pm

Irish Times has it at "Defence Forces spending will be hiked by tens of millions in line with a Cabinet decision to increase the budget for defence earlier this year."

So I'm going to guess somewhere in the barely above inflation mark.

Larbre34 · 26-09-2022 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662479#Comment_119662479

Thats as maybe, but Houlders have been retained to advise on a suitable design and delivery programme, so it may be off-the-shelf, or more likely, it will not.

And so, either way, it will require significant funding to put through detailed design and appoint a builder.

Detailed designs cost millions.

Larbre34 · 27-09-2022 1:57pm

Try getting a few things right Dohvolle and I'll stop.

You can be ridiculously sanctimonious, did anyone ever tell you that before?

source · 27-09-2022 3:42pm

National Security: 1,000 new gardaí, and defence funding to include money for primary air radar https://jrnl.ie/5877212

Increase of only €67m to the Defence budget.

sparky42 · 27-09-2022 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119671676#Comment_119671676

€67 million for the current budget, €35 million as well for the Capital budget, small enough as they are both should be counted.

source · 27-09-2022 4:15pm

€176m for capital budget, €67m for general budget.

sparky42 · 27-09-2022 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119671864#Comment_119671864

No, the 176m includes the already planned capital budget and is only an increase of 35 million.

Grassy Knoll · 27-09-2022 9:05pm

€70 m odd in additional funding over 2022 - IMO modest enough in the overall scheme of things €35m in Capex and €22m in current spend, much of the latter I presume is accounted for pay deal increases? No sign of an additional transport aircraft, what new armour is the army getting - another piecemeal purchase ? To kickstart recruitment of a further 400 the budget needs to create a bit of a buzz - not getting it …. I don’t mean to sound negative, there is an issue of the capacity of the organisation to absorb new spending, but this is not showing much ambition…. How long does it take to identify and acquire primary radar … ?

Larbre34 · 27-09-2022 9:13pm

It is all about the capacity to expand, or lack of.

The DoD frankly could not handle a ramp up of expansion on many fronts as it stands. And so improved structures and project management capability across both the uniformed and civilian arms need serious attention.

I'm only guessing, but you'd imagine the IAA and existing DF functions could put together a systems requirement pretty quickly. Getting a supplier quickly, is another matter entirely. Unless NATO are prepared to equip us fast, through intermediaries, in order to add to their own umbrella of protection.

sparky42 · 27-09-2022 9:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673174#Comment_119673174

The replacement for the RG 32s is underway…

Larbre34 · 27-09-2022 10:37pm

The General Dynamics / MOWAG Eagle V must surely be the favourite for all sorts of good reasons.

Grassy Knoll · 01-10-2022 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673817#Comment_119673817

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673216#Comment_119673216

Fair enough point on spending capacity, but at the minimum you would need someone to point out how this expenditure fits into a coherent strategy and dovetails with the commission on defence plans. All we really have is a piecemeal series of barrack refurbishment projects, perhaps a few dozen replacement armoured vehicles … understand you need to creep before you walk but a little urgency seems to be lacking. Finally, on a transport aircraft seems a no brainer to me and most posting here … it is not as if the plane won’t be eventually clapped out from use. The replacement CASA should be used for what they are being bought for

Grassy Knoll · 01-10-2022 10:16am

Disheartening to see reports of the entire apprentice class leaving the NS - this will have clear operational implications … let us be realistic the target of 400 new recruits next year is pie in the sky - in a full employment situation the defence forces will not be an employer of choice - pay while improving is still off other options, working conditions in terms of the built environment in some cases are Dickensian … easy to diagnose the problems solutions are less easy to come by … the implementation of the Commission report is a few piece, but pay and allowances need to be a key focus. Also poaching of personnel needs to be disincentivised in terms of buy out clauses etc ….

what you will unfortunately need is the Russians to snip a few more cables or pipelines …

roadmaster · 01-10-2022 2:02pm

Coveney is going to next week explain whats happening with the defence budget and go in to more details its going to be very interesting to see if the times where correct about the training aircraft

roadmaster · 02-10-2022 7:15am

So we are looking at 3 radar sites at shared IAA sites and a control center at Casement

https://www.thejournal.ie/primary-radar-air-defence-ireland-5881009-Oct2022/

roadmaster · 02-10-2022 9:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691264#Comment_119691264

For the control center could they retrofit a building or would it be a new build?

jonnybigwallet · 02-10-2022 9:50am

Where ever it goes....they'd be well advised to put a hefty AA missile battery so the damned thing doesn't get taken out by Jonny Russian.

roadmaster · 02-10-2022 10:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691360#Comment_119691360

Jonny god bless ya your always good for a laugh

jonnybigwallet · 02-10-2022 12:14pm

Many a true word was spoken in jest!

sparky42 · 02-10-2022 12:26pm

As every, the Journals comment section on anything related to defence… God almighty, makes some posters here seem close to rational.

mupper2 · 02-10-2022 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691293#Comment_119691293

That site near Dromoland you mention might need to be moved soonish,

tippilot · 03-10-2022 2:19am

That site near Dromoland(called Ballygirreen)is a radio station home to the Irish end of the Shanwick North Atlantic traffic management system, handling air traffic along movable routes over the horizon beyond the reach of radar based on position reporting and assignment of altitude, speed and time restrictions at various standard points.

There is no routine radar based Air Traffic control there, that happens at a rather industrial looking building on the outskirts of Shannon Town.

It does however house a fully equipped back up ATC station in the event the Shannon Town location becomes unusable, so radar feeds do exist there that could be integrated into a military recognised national air picture. As far as potential locations go, it ticks a lot of boxes.

Grassy Knoll · 03-10-2022 9:48am

Has it been confirmed that the Aer Corp would operate the new system, or would it be the army? Also are the systems static or mobile, or a mix?

sparky42 · 03-10-2022 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694856#Comment_119694856

So far we have a Journal article and that’s it, asking about details is pointless right now.

sparky42 · 03-10-2022 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695329#Comment_119695329

Exactly, we are a long way from even an RFI I would guess let alone moving ahead with something. I mean even dropping in the TPY4 seems off to me, that’s a system just coming into service in the US, are we really suggesting we’d buy something so current or was it just a bit of Google fu?

roadmaster · 03-10-2022 10:37pm

We might get some answers tomorrow on the mystery piper aircraft

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20221003-foreign-affairs-committee-to-discuss-the-report-of-the-commission-on-defence-forces-with-the-minister-for-foreign-affairs-and-defence-simon-coveney/

sparky42 · 03-10-2022 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119697904#Comment_119697904

Given what we've seen in other committee appearances I'm not going to hold my breath tbh. I'm sure we would all like to be pleasantly surprised that there was some sort of a plan to be announced but..

roadmaster · 04-10-2022 8:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698047#Comment_119698047

Dont forget a committe member will also ask for a transfer for a solider back to munster from dublin because he missed to much hurling trainning this year and the club are going to have a good stab at the Junior B next year so they need him

sparky42 · 04-10-2022 4:17pm

So did anything happen?

Larbre34 · 04-10-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700620#Comment_119700620

I'm watching it live.

Coveney is impressive in his detail and his delivery. Theres little point in me trying to cover everything he's gone through as it can be watched back or the transcript reviewed, but he has highlighted the rapid work on priority implementation structures and the grabbing of low hanging fruit, which has got the Post-Commission era off to a good start, inter-alia:

The Attorney General's advice on legislative framing for the CHoD appt and Defence HQ/Command along with component restructuring will be received before end October.
The 'marking time' and partial Military Service Allowance for Yrs1-3 are being abolished immediately, resulting in average €6k improvement for 3 Star and Able Seaman ranks by year end.
Joint Civil-Military committees are up and running to address priority items among both hard and soft items, including Org Transformation, Air and Coastal Defence, Reserve Affairs (Revitalisation), Training capacity (1,200 per year through 1 and 2 Star level training to get ahead of losses and increase numbers) Gormanston to become mass enlisted training centre under DFTC development
Civilian heads of Transformation and HR reporting direct to General Staff are in recruitment process already
NS and Air Corps WILL become Navy and Air Force
Funding commitment is 1.5 billion by 2028 at Jan 2022 prices, in other words *already* at 1.6+ billion.
Review of DoD activity within Defence Sector to be published immediately and implemented.
SC wants DF security of non Defence sites withdrawn as soon as practicable, ie Midlands HS Prison, Central Bank, Irish Explosives - should be civil power provided.
And lots more....

roadmaster · 04-10-2022 5:01pm

I have a feeling Enfield could be an issue. The guards would not have the man power to cover it with the route they are taking by removing Armed detecivies long term to be replaced by ASU. So we could see further poaching of the army by AGS for additional ASU units that would take up the gap left by the defence forces armed support

roadmaster · 04-10-2022 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700733#Comment_119700733

Anything on the piper aircraft?

DF Commission Report

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