DF Commission Report

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343320#Comment_119343320

An Irish expert in these matters based in Finland? Why dismiss it because its in RUSI?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344627#Comment_119344627

Their vested interests are a British Conservative angle.

I get that thats their audience too, but pardon me if I judge the suggestion of a formal Irish / British Joint Expeditionary Force to be b0ll0x and totally outside the realistic conversation taking place about Irish defence matters.

A lot of interesting reaction to the Commission and govt response across social media and msm. RACO have a link to an article that cuts to the root of the problem and as it says, once seen it cannot be unseen.

For me It raises other questions as to why the answer to Quinlan’s question is probably “no” and how we arrived at such a state and who benefits. Because it has not happened by accident.

The HLAP is not an implementation plan. Any faltering or backsliding on the steps to 2028 and beyond will reveal that the problems are not nuts and bolts but the imposition by stealth of an undiscussed, unanalysed, vision for the country. Such a vision is fundamental to the state’s existence and it belongs to the people themselves in constitutional change.

https://twitter.com/_idfoc/status/1549294565777182721?s=21&t=gqAlSTrMwi_gWy7W3nsbYg

roadmaster

Will we see an RFT for a Primary Radar this year?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406804#Comment_119406804

I'd hope the urgency of its purchase does not require one. We don't need to tender for something if security of the state is involved, we only do so for reasons of transparency.

I'm sure the IAA have already informed the DoD what is required.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406804#Comment_119406804

I'd have thought the first step will be something similar to the Naval MRV, ie retaining consultants to establish the specific environment and infrastructure required to give coverage and then base a tender for physical equipment, technology and training on the analysis.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407099#Comment_119407099

I Imagine there are dozens, if not hundreds of reports sitting on a shelf somewhere, explaining exactly how this can be done, given it was first publicly flagged in the first DF White Paper.

You'll find many students of the Connand & Staff course would have written a paper also regarding this weakness, and what is reqired & how. Some were even published in Defence Forces Reviews in the years since.

We are not re-inventing the wheel here.

roadmaster

Could we also see a bit of a reorg with air defence and there mobile radar movinng from the army to the new air force

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407335#Comment_119407335

It's a possibility, I know other forces do it this way, I'm not sure there would be any advantage putting it under Air Corps command though. All you would be doing is reduce the number of officers and aircrew available for flying. We don't have a big enough operation to go down the RAF Regiment route. Best leave it under Army control and detach as required.

ancientmariner

We are where we are due to selection of equipment types not been properly co-ordinated or fully within the unit about to be equipped. In the Navy's case Communications lay with the Signal Corps covering everything from HH/radios, radars and main TX/RX systems, gunnery was a matter for Director of Ordnance, Aviation was OC Air Corps. we are now looking for primary radar/secondary radar and were happy to scrap a system on P31 with a range of 137km for 2m square target and greater of course on secondary for Code Charlie.

If we are to have a national primary Military radar, then it must co-ord with Euro control/ATC, and Battlefield Military radar must have it's own organisation. The MRV and all ships should have a tracking radar for both surface and air .

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407357#Comment_119407357

Would you not just transfer the full unit of personal to the new air force command and just get them to change uniform

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407524#Comment_119407524

To what end? Easier to keep them within the Artillery Corps.

ancientmariner

Just something to think about. The MOD at decommissioning, in July at NB, stated that the Service would be known as NAVY henceforth. In all matters Naval , who does what, with what equipment, should be a naval decision, with a naval budget, and consultation within PDF or commercial providers as necessary. The decision on screens for Primary radar may require those assessing threats on those screens, to have some knowledge of Dimensional navigation and associated library of target type ID. We will have to have some agreement with NATO for Linkages and two-way information flows and access to their library of targets.

Artillery should be busy with SHORAD and Longer range AD units and their associated radars. Likewise they should be developing mobile Coastal Defence units to deal with Black Sea type incidents. Getting rid of CDA per se doesn't fit in with Island defence. There is a lot to do but hopefully not Empire building.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407159#Comment_119407159

No, but in all liklihood, not all those writings are comprehensive and/or contemporary.

I would still foresee a consultants assessment, working with the DF, before a tender is issued.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407966#Comment_119407966

For training and resouces, It would be better to have all your radar operators under one umbrella, i know they are different systems but its all in the same sphere

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119409196#Comment_119409196

The nature of radar associated with mobile systems such as ships, aircraft, terrain AD units you will find the operator is part of the "Lock-On" weapon and engagement procedure and part of a specific unit. Primary radar operators are scanning and tracking and identifying often from comparative libraries of echoes compiled over time by Western Agencies.

roadmaster

When looking at the recomendations in the report what is the most important equipment that needs to be got 1st for day to day ops for the defence forces.

Is it Extra helicopters, Primary Radar, Fixed wing transport, The MRV or new APCs or are all equally important

Dohvolle

People.

Without that all the rest is useless. Fix Pay& conditions so the job is an attractive one to join and make a long term career of again.

The CoDF, while pay was not in its remit, made some simple recommendations that could help fix the issue. Its not always about throwing money at the problem, some of it was just about simplifying the process so things like MSA (which everyone gets) is included as core pay, rather than being an allowance.

Larbre34

Completely agree. I wouldn't buy so much as a new Hyundai Van without first changing the paradigm on recruitment, pay, conditions and retention.

On top of reforming pay and allowances, I would be looking at time for training contracts, ie, if you join as an apprentice or pilot cadet, for example, and it takes 5 years to reach qualification, then you owe the DF five more years before you may leave. This is common practice in other roles in the public service, where in-service education is paid for.

I'd also like to seeing increasing association between the DF and other Third Level institutions, to establish an ROTC similar to the American model, while students are still studying, to identify talent and generate an interest in a DF career.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407335#Comment_119407335

Given the 'size' of Irish air defense, I don't see it. Generally speaking (the Germans being the main exception, and there was some back-room dealing to result in it), nations which do have air defense folks as part of the air force generally only have the medium/long-range stuff as air force control, the Army still retains the front-line/battlefield role. Unless Irish air defense is going to suddenly sprout Patriots or S-300s, it seems fairly un-necessary.

roadmaster

I parked in columb barracks during the week for the festival in Mullingar, Sad to see the barracks so run down

Larbre34

Not surprising though, its been vacant for over 10 years.

Hopefully the new LDA housing redevelopment will begin there soon, but its Military days are over for good, thats for certain.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441042#Comment_119441042

Its mad how people in that town where attached to the barracks. I do have to go there for work now and again and all i here is they stole our barracks. They even have signs up aproaching the town saying its the home of the 9th FAR

roadmaster

If the Defence forces plan on staying in Casement between the air corps if expanded will need more Hangers and possable Runway Extensions, the new Medical Center and a possabile Army Detachment when CB is taken by the LDA. Should the DOD be looking at buying the remaining land around the base before Commercial interests buy it?

Dohvolle

That horse has long bolted. The Big distribution warehouse being built at the SE corner of the airfield outside the fence, has the potential to curtail any expansion plans. The Air Corps can only expand to the west, either on the current site, or by moving some fixed wing activities elsewhere.

roadmaster

The DOD should get moving because the land to the west will have a Data Center on it very quickly.

They could also take land to the south west if they expaned the main runway but a new road network woukd have to be built to allow for this.

The only good thing about the current buildings around casement is that they are commercial so they wont have noise complaints compare to if it was new resi

Larbre34

The most lucrative move the DoD could do with Baldonnell, is sell it.

Move the entire Air Corps primary base to Shannon and maintain a DF hangar at Dublin, or Weston.

Even building a new bespoke Air Base in the Dublin region would be cheaper than holding onto Casement at current land prices, especially for a site that will only become more and more restricted.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503422#Comment_119503422

I dont think they will be moving now with the new medical center being built, but anything is possabile

Dohvolle

I can see Bal remaining in use by the Air Corps, but only for Rotary wing and certain Fixed wing only. The Army will take over the rest, same as they did in Fermoy and Gormanstown.

I can see operational fixed wing flying moving out of it completely.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503953#Comment_119503953

You ill see every airport in the west from cork to Donegal begging for the air corps and every TD in between shouting for it