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DF Commission Report

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I sense increasing unease on Twitter about any progress on the report. Any word on the implementation plan? Cabinet reshuffle when Taoiseach changes in December.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Twitter is a bit like having a wife. To be taken in small doses and only half seriously.

    The implementation plan is the implementation plan, its as it was when published in July.

    Budget 2023, being announced this coming week, is the first big test of commitment to it, when the Government puts it's money where it's mouth is - or not.

    There is good and bad to this budget scenario. The Government has a running surplus of about €4.5 bn and its been widely flagged that they intend to borrow another €2 bn to fund growth and ease cost of living demands on households.

    With numbers like that flying about, will an increase in Defence allocation of 2-300 million cause much of a stir, especially as its already been telegraphed?

    The answer is probably yes, among the usual suspects and no, among the general public, who have also seen plenty of evidence of Defence Forces deficiencies this year.

    Lets wait and see....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,947 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I’d say €200 million would be at the upper end of what we could expect tbh, unless there’s been far more cabinet backing for defence spending than what we’ve seen so far. That being said even that much given the small budget we have right now would be an improvement, hell considering past where we’ve seen only low double digit increases any triple figure is a bit of a step change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Well the budget this year we more towards better T&Cs for members than equipment purchases or a bit of both?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Implementation body were not expected to provide any progress reports for 6 months, and that was after they were formed. They were advertising one of the positions well into July. I expect we'll hear something concrete after christmas, and may get a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention in the upcoming budget.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If they don't start the budget allocations now, they might never get the chance.

    They can easily begin addressing some of pay and conditions issues as well as allocating capital funding for the primary radar, awarding design engineering for the MRV class and whole heap of the 48 actions 'accepted' by the Government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Leonardo could be getting a call next week!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Don't think the MRV needs design engineering. It needs full build at this stage, the proposed design has been well developed and analysed in the last 15 years. Plenty of off the shelf designs already out there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Quite agree Doh. No point in kicking the can down the road for another 3 years.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,947 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Irish Times has it at "Defence Forces spending will be hiked by tens of millions in line with a Cabinet decision to increase the budget for defence earlier this year."

    So I'm going to guess somewhere in the barely above inflation mark.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Impossible to predict. August dropped to 8.7%. They want to reach €1.5Bn at 2021 rates its one thing but it may actually be easier to maintain it at 2022 rates.

    They already told us we wouldn't be seeing a large increase in 2022, but you'd expect at least some mention of intent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thats as maybe, but Houlders have been retained to advise on a suitable design and delivery programme, so it may be off-the-shelf, or more likely, it will not.

    And so, either way, it will require significant funding to put through detailed design and appoint a builder.

    Detailed designs cost millions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    you'll say no

    i'll say yes

    you'll say no again

    I'll know yes, but you'll still say no.

    ad infinitum.

    Fact is this has been ongoing for 15 years now, the ENTIRE DF now know exactly what they want from the ship and where they want it, in great detail. The NS have visited NZ to see how Canterbury failed, and what NZ learnt from their experience, and they have been given presentations by other builders on how off the shelf designs can fit, both at home and at the builder's own facility. They present their off the shelf offering, they show us renderings of how it would be configured to our specific needs, both today, and in the lifetime of the vessel.

    Houlders are there to provide the necessary supervision at all stages of development, design, build, test and delivery, as the last person who did the job is FOCNS now and some say some of his decisions then did not serve the NS well in the long term.

    edit: Houlders contract is set to expire in December 2022, with the option to extend.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Try getting a few things right Dohvolle and I'll stop.

    You can be ridiculously sanctimonious, did anyone ever tell you that before?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,287 ✭✭✭source


    National Security: 1,000 new gardaí, and defence funding to include money for primary air radar https://jrnl.ie/5877212

    Increase of only €67m to the Defence budget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,947 ✭✭✭sparky42


    €67 million for the current budget, €35 million as well for the Capital budget, small enough as they are both should be counted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,287 ✭✭✭source


    €176m for capital budget, €67m for general budget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,947 ✭✭✭sparky42


    No, the 176m includes the already planned capital budget and is only an increase of 35 million.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    €70 m odd in additional funding over 2022 - IMO modest enough in the overall scheme of things €35m in Capex and €22m in current spend, much of the latter I presume is accounted for pay deal increases? No sign of an additional transport aircraft, what new armour is the army getting - another piecemeal purchase ? To kickstart recruitment of a further 400 the budget needs to create a bit of a buzz - not getting it …. I don’t mean to sound negative, there is an issue of the capacity of the organisation to absorb new spending, but this is not showing much ambition…. How long does it take to identify and acquire primary radar … ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It is all about the capacity to expand, or lack of.

    The DoD frankly could not handle a ramp up of expansion on many fronts as it stands. And so improved structures and project management capability across both the uniformed and civilian arms need serious attention.

    I'm only guessing, but you'd imagine the IAA and existing DF functions could put together a systems requirement pretty quickly. Getting a supplier quickly, is another matter entirely. Unless NATO are prepared to equip us fast, through intermediaries, in order to add to their own umbrella of protection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,947 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,098 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The General Dynamics / MOWAG Eagle V must surely be the favourite for all sorts of good reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Fair enough point on spending capacity, but at the minimum you would need someone to point out how this expenditure fits into a coherent strategy and dovetails with the commission on defence plans. All we really have is a piecemeal series of barrack refurbishment projects, perhaps a few dozen replacement armoured vehicles … understand you need to creep before you walk but a little urgency seems to be lacking. Finally, on a transport aircraft seems a no brainer to me and most posting here … it is not as if the plane won’t be eventually clapped out from use. The replacement CASA should be used for what they are being bought for



  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Disheartening to see reports of the entire apprentice class leaving the NS - this will have clear operational implications … let us be realistic the target of 400 new recruits next year is pie in the sky - in a full employment situation the defence forces will not be an employer of choice - pay while improving is still off other options, working conditions in terms of the built environment in some cases are Dickensian … easy to diagnose the problems solutions are less easy to come by … the implementation of the Commission report is a few piece, but pay and allowances need to be a key focus. Also poaching of personnel needs to be disincentivised in terms of buy out clauses etc ….

    what you will unfortunately need is the Russians to snip a few more cables or pipelines …



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Coveney is going to next week explain whats happening with the defence budget and go in to more details its going to be very interesting to see if the times where correct about the training aircraft



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So we are looking at 3 radar sites at shared IAA sites and a control center at Casement

    https://www.thejournal.ie/primary-radar-air-defence-ireland-5881009-Oct2022/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Easy. Mt Gabriel, Malin and Woodcock hill, piggybacking existing IAA infrastructure.



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