Retrofitting

arch_stanton · 28-07-2022 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119396538#Comment_119396538

I'm not sure about the rules here on naming names but there's a number in it

WacoKid · 28-07-2022 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397792#Comment_119397792

Seems as if you experienced what I experienced about a month ago.

DOCARCH · 28-07-2022 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397792#Comment_119397792

Mod Note: Thanks. Please don't name the company.

Cuttlefish · 09-08-2022 2:20pm

I too received two quotes (verbally mind you) from a service provider who worked on about 6 houses in my estate over the past six weeks - half got a full external insular wrap while the other half got the gable end insulated

the foreman called to my house (3 bed semi with garage) and gave me a quote of €15,500 and when I mentioned I would be applying for the SEAI grant he said well that is more or less double i asked why and he mentions engineer reports etc

This is farcical !! Why would you apply for a widely publicised grant when they add onto the quote and even add more again??

I haven’t been speaking to the neighbours who got the work done but am fairly certain they paid the service provider directly and didn’t apply for the grant

I contacted SEAI to highlight this and ask if they heard of others getting the same inflated quotes and they just respond that these are independent businesses (and yes they are ) who can charge what they see fit

muffler · 09-08-2022 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449522#Comment_119449522

Get written quotations for both ... with and without the grant. If the one for the grant is any more then you have him by the short and curlies. There are loads of departments where you can forward this info to. See what amount he will then drop by before you raise the issue at another level.

Alkers · 09-08-2022 5:23pm

I'm baulking at some of the prices being thrown around here.

We had the following done in 2019 with the OSS trial in tandem with the credit unions.

Note we are a terraced house (110sqm) with a kitchen extension (which didn't require insulation)

EWI - front facade and rear above the kitchen

New windows - triple glazed on front and double on rear - 6 windows (two large bay windows) and French doors to rear garden

Attic insulation

New Palladio front door with panel above and to either side

Total cost was 18,900, cost after grants - 11,900.

We had 2.5kW solar PV installed ourselves for 2,400e after grant (OSS wanted about 6k for this).

We already had a modern condensing combi boiler.

BER assessments included in above, now A3.

"Project management" was quite limited, did a lot of coordination and specifications / detailing myself.

cgcsb · 10-08-2022 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152927#Comment_119152927

Thanks for this. Would appreciate if you could pm me the oss name

cgcsb · 10-08-2022 12:46pm

So I was very excited about this scheme. Bought an old end of terrace house recently and went to the seai website. To get some instant quotes (note they're computer generated so expected them to be high given that nobody had come to actually see my house so you have to have contingency etc.) The full retrofit for my 60sqm end of terrace was an eye watering 70k. And the break down seemed to suggest that the external wrap was going to be the guts of €20k, so I looked online to see if I could buy the materials myself, sure enough I could buy all materials for external wrap for about €4k. Is the labour really that much? I have no skills so trying to wrap the house myself would be too onerous and I've only youtube videos to guide but surely I could get someone to wrap my (tiny) home for less than 10k.

They also want 4k plus for attic insulation. I mean I don't need much in construction skills to buy a few rolls and roll them out myself for 1k.

The comments here seem to confirm that the whole thing is just more corruption/scams. The OSS people are probably freinds of the ruling parties. So disappointing.

hesker · 11-08-2022 1:56pm

What sort of detail are people getting on quotes from OSS.

Here is an example of what I am getting on one item, MVHR.

Mechanical Ventilation Heat Recovery €9000

That's it. Zero detail.

Has anyone actually proceeded with one of these. Did you get issued a contract or a quote which showed the make & model of units such as MVHR or heat pumps. I'd like to actually know what I'm forking money out on before I committ. I'm waiting on OSS to supply more detailed info but it's like getting blood from a stone.

funnyname · 11-08-2022 2:02pm

...

funnyname · 11-08-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458774#Comment_119458774

Out of curiosity is that post or pre grant price? We installed ours last year in a 220sqm house as part of a big renovation pre the grants updates and it cost 8k plus vat.

hesker · 11-08-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458826#Comment_119458826

VAT is extra

Meeoow · 11-09-2022 2:16pm

I was thinking of doing a deep Retrofit. I notice that there are more OOS coming onto the seai website now, and they seem to be slackening a bit on jobs. I applied months ago, and am only getting replies now. But they seem to have more availability too, like people are not using them.

But they quoted me 850 for the energy assessment, which is literally 2 hours in my house. I'm thinking, if they are that expensive before I even start the project, then what are they going to charge for the full job?

So I think I will go with the individual upgrades.

kabakuyu · 11-09-2022 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603274#Comment_119603274

I got six solar panels(2.4kwp) installed with micro inverters for 2.7k. by a RECI sparks and his roofer friend, the Seai registered guys wanted 5,600E for thew same job.Yuo much better off avoiding the OSS.

WacoKid · 12-09-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603274#Comment_119603274

I paid €675 for the energy assessment and you can only claim back this if you proceed with an OSS.

Meeoow · 12-09-2022 5:48pm

Yes, no such thing as a free lunch when the government implement something. It all sounds great, but when you scratch the surface, it's no great shakes.

cgcsb · 15-09-2022 10:26am

Applied to a few one stop shops about a month ago, heard nothing back or got a "sorry, too busy" message. Got 2 phone calls this morning from sales people who were borderline hysterical insisting that I get an energy assessment done with them. What is going on?

C. Eastwood · 17-09-2022 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620880#Comment_119620880

They need cash flow €€

Meeoow · 18-09-2022 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620880#Comment_119620880

I think you have to get an energy assessment done to avail of the one stop shop. The price of it is ridiculous, even with the 350 rebate. If they are going to screw you before they start the job, I don't have any faith that they won't screw you once you commit to the Retrofit.

Biker1 · 18-09-2022 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603274#Comment_119603274

Energy assessment includes survey of house, publishing of new BER, technical assessment and full report on what measures are required. There is a fair bit of time involved in the whole process. Add to that travelling time and multiple back and forth with the contractor then €850 is about correct. Also that would include 23% vat.

Meeoow · 18-09-2022 2:51pm

It doesn't include VAT. VAT was extra on the quote that I got. Plus I was told they would be 1 to 2 hours in my house, so even including travel, the quote is daylight robbery in my opinion.

Also, no back and forth with contractor. This would be in the project management phase, which is extra if you go with the OOS.

cgcsb · 18-09-2022 3:03pm

It doesn't make any sense. I can tell a contractor what I want to do to make my home more energy efficient.

Bradz213 · 28-09-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634125#Comment_119634125

But can you do the room by room per and post upgrade heat loss calculations?

cgcsb · 28-09-2022 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676936#Comment_119676936

Probably but why would I bother, all that matters is that I'm buying less energy in the form of gas and electricity

Sean Seoighe · 23-01-2023 10:59am

Query for anyone who's used SEAI One Stop Shops for retrofits...

We've already had energy assessment from 2EVA and upgrade report so know what needs to be done to the house from a energy efficiency / retrofit POV and in the process of developing detailed drawings and specifications.

1.So, if we engage a OSS is it enough for them to take our specs etc or will they want input into any of the energy aspects? Concern being that detailed drawings and specs are kind of on hold without OSS possibly amending them.

2. If you've used a OSS how did you select one? Is there any difference between them?

3. Anyone who's used Kore had any good or bad experiences? Lessons learned?

4. Onboarding building contractors - I understand that OSS won't doing the works themselves but will instead PM it so its up to you to bring to them a SEAI registered contractor. If you want a builder to be onboarded do you know is it in anyway arduous process? Just want to check before asking anyone.

cgcsb · 27-01-2023 11:34pm

I believe this scheme is being replaced by a new one that's more, fit for purpose so maybe wait for the new scheme to start??

The OSS is a gouge, you'll pay highly inflated prices for everything included in the retrofit and a 'project management fee'

Sean Seoighe · 02-02-2023 10:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168088#Comment_120168088

Interesting, didn't know a new one on the way

cgcsb · 02-02-2023 10:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190731#Comment_120190731

I heard it mentioned on the news, basically you'll be able to get finance for home retrofitting below market rate, so something between 3% and 8% but the scheme is of course delayed and there's no word on how they plan to stop contractors gouging, if at all.

Sean Seoighe · 02-02-2023 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190804#Comment_120190804

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for it!

Lumen · 05-02-2023 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190804#Comment_120190804

It might be below market rate for unsecured loans, but it's well above market rate for mortgages. This sort of finance is most suited to mortgage credit because it's literally secured to the fabric of the building. Problem is that a lot of old, cold buildings are lived in by people beyond working age who would struggle to get mortgage finance. It'd make most sense for the govt to be financing it directly and for a lien to be put on the property so that it gets paid off when they, eh, move out.

As with many of these policies introduced or kite-flown over the last few years, it seems purposely designed to achieve nothing.

05-02-2023 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204076#Comment_120204076

++1

If the intention was to actually increase the volume of home construction & retrofitting, the blindingly obvious step 1 would be to increase the capacity of the construction industry. Starting with all the government (local & national) bodies/departments/agencies plus semi-states taking on large numbers of apprentices several years ago. They (all the local authorities, housing agency, OPW, ESB, DAA, etc) should be training far more apprentices (in all areas) than they themselves require so there's some hope that what is a large excess for the government/semi-states might actually start filling some gaps in the private sector.

When the state/semi-state sector actually has some capacity they can then start directly retrofitting (and building) homes. Relying on the private sector to do (and do well) what is hasn't been doing well really ever in the past is delusional in my opinion.

The upper end of that scale at 8% is 1% higher than my credit union rate for home improvements, and more than twice their mortgage rate. The only people who are gonna avail of such gouging rates are the people who have no real alternatives, and probably can't afford the repayments anyway. The rate charged should be the cost of finance for the state (2.64% today apparently) plus an admin fee.

05-02-2023 11:42am

I disagree that it's "purposely designed to achieve nothing" though. I think that a bunch of smart and well meaning civil & public servants (including politicians) are trying very hard to come up with a perfect system that will deliver for the next 2 or 3 decades.

It's simply extremely unfortunate that a bunch of smart & well meaning civil & public servants trying very hard to come up with a perfect system that will deliver for the next 2 or 3 decades bears such a strong resemblance to a bunch of brain damaged monkeys randomly throwing poop at passersby and one another.

The harsh reality that a bunch of less smart civil & public servants trying to come up with a barely acceptable solution that can start delivering in the next 90 days would almost certainly get a far better result.

Trying to address a crisis that's worsening on a daily basis based solely on a strategy based on constantly changing assumptions & variables that's intended to deliver for the next 2 or 3 decades is utterly moronic. It's like someone who's reaction to waking up with their house on fire reacting by sitting on their bed with a pen & paper to design a fire inhibiting, detection, and suppression system to be installed in 3 months time: it's not gonna end well.

Lumen · 05-02-2023 12:42pm

OK, but to keep this on track specifically for retrofitting (as opposed to construction in general)...

The programme for Government commitment is to upgrade 500,000 homes to B2 standard and to install 400,000 heat pumps by 2030.

(direct quote from IT, I'm not going to bother fact-checking that)

That's 62k homes a year for 8 years.

How many completed so far? 89. Not 89 thousand. 89. Source: Irish Examiner.

Like the continued avoidance of social housing construction or state inspections during construction, the government finds itself unable to effect any direct interventions.

We should expect failure unless something changes radically.

This isn't like transition to EVs, which will happen with minor tax interventions as the fleet is turned over. Houses don't get scrapped every 10-15 years.

What does happen is that houses change hands every 20 years or so, a process which usually involves finance. It ought to be possible to integrate upgrades into this natural turnover, incentivised with differential stamp duty. For instance: apply 20k stamp duty to all non-exempt houses for every step in the BER ratings under A3, to be applied 6 months after purchase. That will instantly devalue inefficient housing stock and free up the cash for upgrades.

cgcsb · 05-02-2023 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633627#Comment_119633627

My annual energy bill is about that, no chance of me paying someone the same to come out and take a look. I could just tell them what I want done, the whole thing is a gouge.

05-02-2023 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204412#Comment_120204412

I'm not sure you can separate the general construction industry from the sector specifically aligned towards retrofitting, simply because so many people will do energy efficiency & general retrofitting/renovation together. For example, a plumber who is installing a system fit for an air-source heat pump as part of a retrofit is manifestly not installing such a system in a new build, and the relevant activity is therefore displaced from one part of the construction industry to another where both segments are already desperately short of skilled/professional resources. The only solution to that problem is increasing the size of the pool of skilled & professional persons to deliver what's required.

I see where you're coming from on different rates of stamp duty for different BER ratings. There's a lot of merit to that idea in fairness, although it'd probably (IMO) work better as a refund: ie, charge (whatever rate) punitive stamp duty immediately on the sale of the property, and get a refund when you submit an upgraded BER later. I don't think there should be any limit on the definition of "later" though. Say the punitive rate is progressive at 1% for the B's. 2% for the C's & 3% for D's or lower. So a €300k house at D3 get's hit with 18% of €54k of additional duty. It's upgraded to B3 a few years later, and you get a refund of €45k. That would be motivating.

Yeah, the 400k retrofits by 2030 is just a wild fantasy and isn't going to happen. And yeah, absent radical change the level of failure around retrofitting (and desperately needed construction activity in general) will be legendary. Or more accurately the level of failure will be even more legendary, given that there's already been plenty written about the abject failure in delivery around housing & energy efficiency retrofitting already.

what the hell! · 05-02-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145097#Comment_120145097

I’m just getting started with Kore so I’ll let you know how it’s going.

MegamanBoo · 28-02-2023 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204412#Comment_120204412

It's a disaster alright, much like everything else FFG touches, yet people keep voting for them. 🤷‍♂️

For myself, I have the finances right now to do a wall pump and solar.

Yet I'm afraid if I do I rule myself ineligible for some type of scheme like this in future, as I wouldn't meet the criteria for being able to upgrade by the required amount in one project.

So I'm being disincentivized from cutting back my co2 and making my house more comfortable for my kids.

F**king crazy

cgcsb · 28-02-2023 12:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296936#Comment_120296936

Managing the upgrade on my own I've gotten a new super efficient combi gas boiler installed, attic insulation, external insulation and solar plus battery for about 26k including grsnts, granted my house is fairly small, only 60sqm which is fine for a single person, the new windows and doors were 11k and no grant offered. The one stop shop quote I got for the same thing plus a heat pump instead of the boiler was North of 70k. They wanted nearly a grand just to come to the house and do an inspection. I just said they were chanvers and sorted it myself. The one stop shop is a complete scam. The selected contractors must be connected to FFG.

padjocollins · 28-02-2023 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297107#Comment_120297107

sounds incredible cheap, what part of the country are u in ? fairl play . any chance you’d give a breakdown of the solar/battery and external insulation , solar and battery size . I can’t see u getting that in dublin . would love to be wrong

chooseusername · 10-03-2023 9:56am

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41089321.html

.....

DOCARCH · 21-11-2023 6:58am

Mod Note: Last post deleted as another thread started with same post.

bailenasi · 29-11-2023 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205359#Comment_120205359

How is it going? Thinking of same

what the hell! · 29-11-2023 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432086#Comment_121432086

I didn't end up going with it in the end. It was crazy expensive. The whole thing seems to be a bit of a joke. I got the technical assessment done which could be handy if you want to do all the bits one at a time. But when it's all lumped together into one project and when the builders see that you're doing a retrofit, the quotes are way higher than where they should be.

Sols12 · 04-12-2023 10:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432371#Comment_121432371

Are you able to share the quotes you got? I too will be looking to go with either Kore or Electric Ireland to provide the review/project management. Did they recommend external wall insulation? I find that if you need external wall insulation over cavity wall insulation it can add tens of thousands unfortunately.

circadian · 08-12-2023 12:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297107#Comment_120297107

I waited for the OSS to come online and laughed every single one of those chance's out of here. Lowest quote was 95k and highest 120k. One of them even quoted tearing the kitchen out and fitting a new one!

Anyway, done the lot with a heat up p and solar for 55k myself. Juggling the contractors was a bit of a pain but well worth the saving.

AngryLips · 19-03-2024 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469175#Comment_121469175

Came on this thread to read up on other people's experience with OSS upgrades. I have the exact same experience as you in terms of outlandish quotes. Although I've found the quotes affiliated with the energy providers to be much more reasonable and just paid a deposit on one with SSE in the last week so it's full steam ahead for me.

Retrofitting

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