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Retrofitting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭gooner99


    I have no experience. With regards to the technical assessment and BER. Do you need to choose the provider carefully or do they all have the same experience/training and follow the same procedure/reporting?



  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭cloughy


    Can you advise someone who would do it for 300, as I googled a few and those that had prices the tests and recommendations, etc were 500/600, for a 4 bed semi.

    Thought it expensive, but I suppose if BER is few hundred, then technical assessment I would assume requires more time and equipment, but maybe I'm wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 996 ✭✭✭mitresize5


    Months later and still no one stop shops announced

    really caught here now - deep retrofit and extension ready to go to tender but caught waiting for a one stop shop to PM the SEAI side

    Madness why yuo cant get the full suite of grants outside the one stop shop process

    Asked the SEAI guy at the Ideal Homes expo and he said 'end of April ... hopefully'



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭gooner99


    One stop shop list now live. All of five companies listed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Remember when these SEAI “Experts” advise you that the be best thing for YOU for your house is to wrap it in External Insulation.

    If your home has a Cavity constructed external wall with gables, then the cavity of the gable walls are normally not closed, so the NEW external insulation will be redundant, even if you do obtain an ‘A’ BER Cert.

    When Heat gets a choice of escaping by either Conduction OR Convection, Convection always wins. (up up and away) 🔥🔥🔥



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  • Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭FrankN1


    Anyone have any success with One Stop Shop? I presume it's the only way to go if you have a few jobs that need to be done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12 acolmanj


    Hi FrankN1,

    I'm in the same boat. I just emailed all the one stop shops on the SEAI website list. I got the technical BER report separately. Will see what they propose.

    Don't have a clue who is good yet.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    That’s a bit of generalisation to suggest the ewi is ‘redundant’. If the gable is a concern then add insulation to the inside of the gable up say a 1m distance, thus mitigating the thermal conduction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    BryanF

    I do not understand what remedy you are Specifying. Please explain what you are Specifying with your above comment and as follows:-?

    ”If the gable is a concern then add insulation to the inside of the gable up say a 1m distance, thus mitigating the thermal conduction”???????



  • Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭FrankN1


    Is there anyway to know which is the best value provider?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood




  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Do you know of any mitigations for this?

    Is it possible/practical to close the cavity?



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Lumen

    BryanF offered a solution above on 24 April at 11.58. But I cannot understand what is stated. I replied and am waiting on a reply from BryanF.

    Yes it’s possible to close the cavity on top of the gables and any other openings in the cavities.

    My main concern is that the ventilation of the cavity prevents an increase in the moisture content of the First Floor joists ends which are built in to the inner leaf and in older houses the joist ends were not protected. The ventilation of the cavity prevents Dry Rot in the joists. This dampness enters the cavity below the DPC, and may also be caused by ingress of rainwater. The damp air in the cavity is increased in temperature by the heat loss from the house which heats the damp air in the cavity. The warm air Must rise up by Convection and this ventilates the damp air out of the cavities 24/7 and reduced the Relative Humidity of the cavity. (As a radio DJ says”its Magic” 😂😂)

    Furthermore, it would necessitate a scaffolding, and the slates /tiles above the gable would need to be removed and the felt/ membrane cut out to get access to the open cavity of the concrete block walls to seal the Cavity.

    Firstly this is very expensive and secondly I would not recommend this under any circumstances and thirdly I would not allow the SEAI /FAS expert EWI installers near any roof.

    You also asked “are there any mitigations for this”.

    Yes, everything is possible in buildings. €€€€€€€€€

    My simple solution to stop warm air escaping from a ventilated cavity and making the EWI redundant, is to fill the cavity with an approved Insulation in accordance with the manufactures instructions.

    This will cause the heat from the house - which is now prevented from escaping by Convection in the cavity - and Must escape through the wall and EWI by Conduction.

    Obviously it’s not Magic - it’s Building Science.

    I would love to hear the comments from the SEAI/FAS Expert EWI Insulation Installers to this solution, when you explain to them about the ventilated cavity, and Convection and that you want the cavity filled. Please post their comments here in this Forum. Now that would be Magic 🪄 🧙‍♀️. 😂😂😂😂😂.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    But all NSAI certs for EWI detail the required bead filling of existing cavities, so...



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    I understand that.

    But there are thousands of houses in Ireland where the cavities are not filled and EWI has been fitted, and updated BER Certs are issued.

    And there will be many more houses in the future in Ireland with unfilled open cavities - fitted with EWI.

    There are no Professionals with PI Insurance involved. When professionals with PI Insurance - have to sign a Certificate - they WILL ensure that they are not committing an act of Negligence.

    When you are dealing with human beings you must always expect incompetence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,052 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Oh right, I naively assumed people would follow basic instructions 😀



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    ‘Thousands’? And they got the grant? Show us proof of this please?

    Assuming with ewi that the cavity is pumped. this last post seems to be the first mention of un-filled cavity in the thread. And therefore there should be minimal/ no moment of air in the cavity

    if you add insulation to the inside of the gable wall, from ceiling insulation vertically up the inside of the gable wall, by say 1m - that would mitigate the majority of heat loss from the cavity wall block work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    BryanF

    Proof-

    You want proof. There are many houses in Ireland with redundant EWI. That is a fact. The statistics for this won’t be available until the Government have to foot the bill for all the houses that are retrofitted with EWI where there is a ventilated cavity and the EWI redundant, and the homeowners with bank loans to pay for the EWI, will be putting pressure on the Government to rectified the heat loss problem from the ventilated cavity.

    The ventilated cavity will need to be filled to resolve the problem.

    At least it will be a cheaper to rectify than the Mica or Pyrite problems. And of course you can’t get proof of the total number of houses affected by Mica, as these figures won’t be available for many years either.


    Grants-

    Yes they got grants.

    BER Assessor inspected the EWI and issued upgraded BER Cert.

    Most of the Assessors won’t know about the heat loss from the ventilated cavity, and most Assessors cannot check to ascertain if the cavity is filled.


    Filled Cavities-

    I do not understand what point you are making in relation to the first mention of unfilled cavities in the thread. So what? I have mentioned the problem with EWI on a home with vented cavities in many queries.

    The majority of people with EWI don’t know about heat loss from ventilated cavities.

    Yes you are correct that if a cavity is pumped and filled - then with most types of cavity fill there won’t be any movement of air. And of course there won’t be any cavity either.


    Insulation Gable Walls in the Attic:-

    The point you made on 24th inst at 11.58 above was a ambiguous, and there was me thinking you had a solution, so I asked you to clarify what you meant. You have clarified that above where you stated as follows:-

    “if you add insulation to the inside of the gable wall, from ceiling insulation vertically up the inside of the gable wall, by say 1m - that would mitigate the majority of heat loss from the cavity wall block work”

    I take this to mean that you are advising to insulated the inner face of the concrete block walls in the uninhabited Attic from the ceilings (of the living areas) up to the rafters.

    This cannot work under any circumstances because of Building Science.

    1. Fixing insulation on to the inner face of the wall in the Attic will result in Zilch reduction of heat loss from a ventilated cavity.
    2. No person would ever insulate the inner wall of the gables in a BR ventilated uninhabited Attic. (IWI)😂.
    3. This would be a total waste of time and money
    4. It would serve no purpose whatsoever.
    5. The air in a BR ventilation Attic will be almost the same temperature of the external air temperature if not the same temperature.
    6. Heat in air and liquids must flow towards cooler air. When equilibrium temperature is reached heat flow will cease.
    7. If there is no differences in the temperatures in the Attic and the external atmosphere then there will be no heat loss or very little heat loss from the Attic. Assuming the Attic in a Retrofitted Attic is now insulated and ventilated to the Building Regulations.
    8. Heat is highly intelligent. Never makes any mistakes whatsoever. It will always escape by Convection when given a choice. Convection is very simple. For heat to escape by Conduction is very hard work.
    9. Heat will never flow through the walls by Convection in a ventilation attic. It will be up up and away by Convection in a puff of the ventilation air.
    10. For example -take a room which is very well insulated and air-tight all round, and if the temperature is lower outside, the heat in the room must escape by Conduction. If windows and doors in the room are opened Conduction will cease immediately and heat loss by Convection will take place immediately and only cease when the room air is the same temperatures as the external atmosphere - in minutes.
    11. In a BR ventilated Attic the heat cannot go through the gable walls by Conduction- even if you could bribe it.
    12. Furthermore no matter how much you lower the U value of the Gable walls in a BR ventilation uninhabited attic, the heat loss from the habitable part of the house with EWI and a Ventilated Cavity, will be exactly the same and will be by Conduction through the inner leaf of the wall and through the cavity insulation, when the heat loss enters the ventilated cavity it will cease Conduction and commence Convection and MUST follow the warm air upwards and escape at the top of the open cavity in to the external atmosphere. It’s not Magic- it’s Building Science.
    13. The approx €30,000 worth of EWI will be Redundant.
    14. There is only simple solution that can be completed by the SEAI/FAS Insulation Experts, and that is to fill the Cavity with Approved Insulation in accordance with the Manufactures Instructions.




  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Dag12


    I got through to one of "one stop shops". They're arranging the technical assessment 625€. I already had detailed SEAI BER assessment with recommendations however they claim that technical assessment is more detailed and required.

    So thats expense number one. Like many others I plan major renovations including an extension, so I don't know how to piece it all together. I am hoping getting heat controls, new boiler and attic insulation will be enough for reaching B2. Then I can get rid of one stop shop and get builders to do the rest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Dag12

    If your house needs refurbishment internally, consider fitting internal insulation to all external walls. New slabs to internal walls and few slaps over the slabs on the ceilings. 3 mm skim of hardwall new skirting boards and architraves - and you have a new looking

    You will need to fit slabs with 20 mm insulation to internal concrete block walls built in to the existing walls to prevent a cold bridge.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭dathi


    1. If there is no differences in the temperatures in the Attic and the external atmosphere then there will be no heat loss or very little heat loss from the Attic. Assuming the Attic in a Retrofitted Attic is now insulated and ventilated to the Building Regulations.

    there is a difference the air in the attic and the external atmosphere that is why when we are doing a uvalue calculation we allocate it a resistance

    taken from Part L building regulations appendix A calculation of U values

    "Resistance of roof space 0.200" 



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    C. Eastwood

    no facts/studies/papers have been offered re seai ewi faults or failings.

    you appear to be misunderstanding the point I’m making about re gable ends. Let’s just agaree the basics. if ewi is installed, the cavity should be filled. Ewi is arguably the best method for improving an existing buildings thermal envelope. The gable end detail can be resolved, it’s straight forward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    daithi

    My reply was in relation to heat loss in an EWI house from a Ventilation Cavity where insulating the Inner-face of the external wall in the BR vented Attic was mentioned.

    A Construction Professional specifying this construction to a Client would be committing an act of Negligent.

    It should be axiomatic to a normal minded person [(should but?)] from reading my reply/s that I have an understanding of U Values, K values, etc, and the Building Regulations and Technical Guidance Documents, and Building Science and construction etc.

    This Forum is also used by laypersons looking for simple uncomplicated unambiguous advice, and it is unethical of professionals to be giving links to the Building Regulations or Technical Guidance Documents to lay persons. Notwithstanding the fact many construction workers wouldn’t understand many of the Regulations or TGD’s.

    Your comment-

    • “There is a difference the air in the attic and the external atmosphere”

    Every laypersons would be very aware of that wonderful scientific fact..

    I have never seen a U value carried out on the membrane/ felt and slates/tiles on a uninhabited BR Attic, and it would be less useful than the redundant EWI on a Ventilated cavity and similarly as useless as the proposed internal insulation fitted on the inner face of a gable wall in a BR ventilated Attic void.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring




  • Registered Users Posts: 45,953 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    "it is unethical of professionals to be giving links to the Building Regulations or Technical Guidance Documents to lay persons"

    It hasnt stopped you in the past 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    muffler

    Firstly I’m delighted that you are reading and - most importantly remembering all my comments, and possibly maybe trying to find faults with what I state.

    Extracting a relevant small section of a page of a TGD for the purpose of /and explaining to a lay person what is meant by it - is not the same as giving a link to an entire 98 page very complicated complete document, which many professionals have a problem trying to fathom.

    Also, it is axiomatic that a person giving the link to these complicated technical documents are possibly not capable of extracting the relevant page or section required.

    TGD L (2019) contains 98 pages of complicated technical details, and there are 6 previous TGD Part L which may also be relevant, depending on the age of the building, and some construction professionals don’t understand these.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭dathi


    It should be axiomatic to a normal minded person [(should but?)] from reading my reply/s that I have an understanding of U Values, K values, etc, and the Building Regulations and Technical Guidance Documents, and Building Science and construction etc.

    how about psi values

    it is unethical of professionals to be giving links to the Building Regulations or Technical Guidance Documents to lay persons. Notwithstanding the fact many construction workers wouldn’t understand many of the Regulations or TGD’s.

    Pius vii "For you should have kept before your eyes the warnings which Our predecessors have constantly given, namely, that, if the sacred books are permitted everywhere without discrimination in the vulgar tongue, more damage will arise from this than advantage" pretty much what the catholic hierarchy was saying in 1816 or is it that you dont like our books being used to refute your advise



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    the more someone claims to be an expert, the more someone comes across as a troll. everything about this posting style and approach suggests maybe a college student or a disgruntled DIY builder. Nothing to date suggests any depth of knowledge or understanding of building regulations. The earlier Sales pitch has now morphed into a more bullish style, where the goal posts are moved each time a post is challenged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    @C. Eastwood, if you wouldn't mind will you clarify something for me because I am a wee bit confused by your comments and emoji's etc.

    I have a cavity walled house (bungalow) with 3 gable walls. The attic space is uninhabited, unheated and well ventilated. The cavities have been pumped with certified bonded bead insulation to the ridge. The walls have also been externally insulated (200mm rockwool).

    Do you see any point in adding insulation to the inner leaf of the gable cavity walls in the attic?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    MicktheMan

    Please excuse the childish Emoji’s etc. When one is dealing with ridiculous silly childish replies and comments- it’s necessary to try to think as a child.

    Congratulations, you have one of the best insulated houses describe here. It must be a very warm house, and very cheap to heat. Well done.

    NO do not fix any insulation to the inside face of the inner leaf of the concrete block wall in the attic, as it would be totally redundant and a complete waste of money, and serve no purpose whatsoever.

    I was discussing this totally ridiculous suggestion, as it was recommended by someone else, in opposition to some of my comments.

    Kind Regards

    C.



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