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Retrofitting

  • 07-02-2022 3:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭


    Hey Guys,


    Just seeing what everyones thoughts / hopes etc for what might be announced tomorrow.


    I wonder will this apply to properties built recently or ones which are currently under construction.


    Thanks



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    This is one of the most badly thought out campaigns to date. Retrofit what ?? do the government know what retrofit means ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭carbuyer01




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,245 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    These schemes generally result in a huge markup in price by the relevant contractors, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope.



  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    If it is anything like the old warmer homes scheme that SEAI managed, it'll just be lining the pockets of the approved contractors.

    These grants don't cover direct labour work, it has to be approved contractors. So they will just put up their prices in tune with the grant and it ends up costing the homeowner the same money, grant or no grant. Plus they have to have the largely meaningless BER surveys done before and after.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    The same thing happened with the car charger grant. The prices shot up to on average €1600 from about 6-800 originally.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭carbuyer01


    Yeah i assume so, but lets hope the government will already have that issue in hand, then again the government!!! Wouldnt have any huge confidence!



  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Vittu


    Article in the paper says it could cost €70K to retrofit a 2nd hand home. Government will cover 40 - 50% of this cost and then you are left with a bill of approx. €35K. With the mortgage, creche, energy bills etc as well I think I will continue as is. We have a labour shortage that is getting slowly worse and all the new homes that need to be built this year so where will all the skilled workers appear from. The cost of building materials are also going through the roof and €70K today might be €80K in the very near future. Oh and the cost of a new electrical car also the the government wants us to buy



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,124 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Listened to Eamon Ryan going on about 'special 'home loans to help people fund the balance if a retrofit.

    My first thought was people are already to the pin of their collars paying rising costs of everything without an additional homeloan.

    Then Eco Eye was discussing the same issue albeit a programme dated about a year ago. A home energy consultant was talking about a home owner of a 3 bed semi with a mortgage outstanding of 200 k(!) and energy bills monthly of 173 per month getting a retrofit of 35 k with a grant of 35% of this and taking out a green mortgage top up to cover the cost of the balance . By her reckoning with energy bills cut in half the homeowner now has repayments which are only 1 euro more expensive .... ! Cue presenter saying " wow, and they live in a much warmer , more energy efficient home for only 1 Euro a month!

    The completely inadequate assumptions and glaring unreality of this scenario for most people at this present time struck me and all I could think is how much some of these energy experts or consultants stand to gain by the governments announcements over the last couple of days. And the only other people who will gain are those who were about to take the plunge and have been waiting for this announcement ..more power to them if they have the money ready to go and at least some will benefit .

    But for many others mortgages vary , energy bills are usually higher or those that need to do more can afford a major retrofit less .

    Also as pointed out previously costs of work and labour have gone up so much that even though the grants have gone up now to 50% most people will find the work has gone up so much it is still unaffordable .

    I think it is a good thing that people are being incentivised to upgrade to more efficient homes but there needs to be more realism about how people will be able to afford to access these grants without taking on more debt .

    It would be good if the cost of green mortgages or top up loans were made and kept affordable so that people who are in the less- well -off- with - families - to- look- after bracket could afford to get essential work done and genuinely keep costs down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Just more bluster from the Government. In reality we could do with publicly employed tradesmen and retrofitters to carry out the work. That's the only way to ensure that contractors don't load extra onto the qoutes and grants get passed to the homeowner. If we are taking about a process which will invariably last for decades it makes perfect sense to do this. In this scenario homeowners would only have to pay for materials though public loan facilities and labour would be paid for via the carbon tax!!Even with a grant a heat pump will cost between 12-15K. Madness. When the grant isn't passed on we will be at 20-23k.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭hesker


    Just looking at the SEAI website.

    Does it look like the latest scheme has moved from a grant system of “up to 35%” to one where the grant is a nominal capped sum for items.

    so EWI grant is capped at €6K for a semi-d and so on.

    I know it’s more nuanced than that but it appears the % basis is gone.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,595 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Not to mention months of disruption, redecorating, alternative accommodation...

    The payback period on this would exceed the lifespan of most homeowners.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    The gov wants 500,000 homes done by 2030. The pace of tis work would need to increase to increase to 75,000 per year. We did 5000 last year according to the media. How many a year do you all consider is feasible per a year with current workforce?



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭kieran26


    I also noticed that the restriction on not receiving the grant for external insulation if you've already had the cavity pumped is still there. Difference of 7600 between the two. I've emailed my TDs for clarification.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I still dont really see how they want this to work, other than the one-stop-shop idea, but I dont understand how that fits into a larger plan you might have if you are renovating your house or putting on an extension. Does the one-stop-shop guy also have to do this work or would they be a sub-contractor for your main builder?


    It should be open to any builder and the work should be checked and certified by some sort of building control process, like the rest of the world. (with accountability if something thats signed off turns out to be defective/inadequate)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    There was enough paper work to fill out for the car charger grant, I can’t imagine how awful this is going to be if they don’t have an appropriate phone app/web portal for uploading documents.

    I still can’t get over the fact I had to post the SEAI a picture of my car printed out on an A4 page and a picture of the charger as well. It all felt very 2005ish or something. Luckily I was in the office a few days later so could print out the photos.



  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭Cdemess


    This is Ireland, building control sign off on nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭hesker


    You can ask your one stop shop to do additional work. They might or they might not in which case you’re free to get whoever you want to do it. Grants will be awarded only for work done by registered SEAI contractors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Vittu


    I think it will cost a fair chunk of change grant or no grant. I personally do not want to take more debt. It wasn't too long ago houses were being repossessed in this country because people couldn't pay. It will always be warmer in your own home no matter the BER rating than on the street.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    @Cdemess that was kinda my point, they should be signing off on this, it makes no sense that only certain contractors are able to do it via the grant scheme.


    @hesker its much more inefficient (i.e. expensive) to do it this way, you'll have 2 lots of scaffolding for example. I know the grants are only for SEAI contractors, thats what I'm complaining about!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I wonder should they be driving air to air instead of air to water for retrofitting. They could speed through huge amounts of houses much cheaper that way.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭silver2020


    There are 1.95 million homes in Ireland.

    There are approximately 600,000 homes with mortgages.

    Over half of those 600,000 have less than 15 years left on the mortgage.

    And those who bought 2010 - 2016 got great value on their homes.


    That's a HUGE market where money is not overly tight and where retrofit will enhance living quality and save.


    I'm certainly going to max it and move from a D rating. Probably won't save any money, but I'll have better heating for no extra cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭hesker


    @GreeBo

    You asked "Does the one-stop-shop guy also have to do this work or would they be a sub-contractor for your main builder?"

    What I'm saying is no they don't have to do that. They don't have to do any work unrelated to the SEAI grant. In fact, as far as I can see, they don't have to do any actual work at all apart from collating multiple grant applications into a combined package and submitting all the forms and data. You can choose your own contractors if you like and agree prices with them. But the one stop shop will still get their fee.

    If you find a builder who employs contractors who are registered with SEAI who can do this work then you might be able to achieve the efficiencies you mention.



  • Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭Fantana2


    Anything for someone wanting to do small jobs? I’d like to change my front and back door but this is not our forever home so I’m reluctant to spend a lot of money. If I could get a grant for say half I’d probably go ahead for the greater good. I added an extra 100mm of attic insulation to bring it up to 300mm as that was easy enough to do. I might get the cavity wall pumped as we just have a small terraced house.



  • Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]



    According to a building expert interviewed yesterday most people will have to move out of their house for deep retrofit. Heat pumps are huge and won't fit in most hotpresses, floorboards will have to be taken up to replace pipes, radiators will likely have to be replaced too. The houses will be uninhabitable for up to 6 weeks he stated. That's extra expense and hassle on families.

    I am 61, work part time, own my house. Hardly any savings and no pension. Any work I get now will be short term contract. I won't get a loan on this basis. How am I supposed to come up with 25K? In fact it's 50K upfront and God only knows how long it will take to inspect completed houses and get grants paid! Are they going to employ hundreds of admin staff to work on phones and process these grants? Years ago I had to get an infra red system put on my well as the water was contaminated. There is a grant for this. It took almost 12 months to get the grant repaid as the Environmental crowd wouldn't come out to sign off on it.


    In an ideal world it would be lovely my home up to a B1, currently its C3 and its going to stay that way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 Phirstclass


    New scheme allows for either IWI or EWI on previously grant funded cavity fill jobs!



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,133 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    Care to expand a little on this idea. Why do you think would ata be a better solution than atw?



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I think we are at cross purposes :) I know the SEAI guy doesnt have to do anything else.

    I'm getting major renovations done part of which will be insulation/heatpump/airtightness/windows etc etc

    I dont want the one-stop-shop guy to be also doing my extension but I cant have my main contractor doing the thermal stuff as they (most likely) wont be SEAI registered. That leaves all the people like me having to probably pay two separate contractors and makes a mess of a job, with each side blaming each other for stuff.

    The Green Party approach seems to be only targeting people who are just getting the grant work done in isolation.


    /edit

    If you are saying that the one-stop-shop can just be a middle man who does no actual work, then I'm even more confused as to what the point of them is, other than to raise prices for the consumer! :(



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    HeatPumps go outside, just like air conditioners, otherwise they wont work.

    You wont have to replace pipes unless you want to (e.g to put in underfloor heating) and radiators get replaced all the time, you dont need to leave the house!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Why do you think that would be faster? Putting ducting to every room wont be any faster than replacing a boiler with a heat pump?

    Or are you thinking about some other aspect?



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