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Girl renting room in house refusing to move out

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭Sarn


    Exactly, the OP said that it is a four bedroom house with all bedrooms rented. The pre-existing tenants are not licencees, given that the OP did not live there during their tenancies. A LL cannot decide to move in and just change the tenancy type, well they can, but if a tenant objects…

    Also, the OPs story has also changed. They originally said “In January this year the house became my PPR but I haven't stayed there as I can work remotely with my job and I've been staying in my home town in the north west looking after an elderly relative that hasn't been well.” If the OP has never lived there during the new tenant’s time there that would also call into question the licencee status.

    The OP just needs to be very careful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    I'm not an expert in this field but why would owning another house make a difference? There are many examples of people moving away for work or other reasons and renting out their house while they are away. Tenants in that house will still have the same rights. I would not have thought it made a difference if the owners are renting, own another house or are staying with relatives somewhere else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Point three is quite clear. OP owns the house has continual access to it and he retained right to change occupant's

    It quite clear she is a liciencee.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,072 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Clear only to you, did the other tenants rights disappear when the op moved in? At the risk of maths not being your strong point, four rooms, four separate rental agreements, makes you wonder, doesn’t it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭TheAnalyst_


    OP is pulling a fast one and probably dodging the tax as well. I hope it comes crashing down for them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    There is another room in the house that he uses as a bedroom. I taught you re-read the thread was was it the parts that suits a certain analysis

    The tenant has not appealed his eviction notice to the RTB so she probably accepts she is a liciencee as well.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,072 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Read the op again, there are 4 bedrooms, 4 separate rentals, are you now claiming the sitting room is the op’s bedroom? Again, are you saying the other tenants lost their rights due to the op throwing a mattress on the floor of a room which isn’t a bedroom?

    Why would the tenant appeal the eviction notice to the RTB? There is no notice to appeal, unless you are under the impression a WhatsApp message is a valid notice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Read it again you. He fulfills the criteria to have them all as liciencee's. There is no proscribed way of sending a notice to vacate to a liciencee, she know it legal and she has not challenged it.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    You can’t be tried for theft and found guilty of murder!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,072 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    You think a property owner can walk into a house full of tenants, throw a mattress on the floor of the living room and say, “Good news, you guys have lost all your tenants rights, you are now just guests in my house”?

    Give your head a wobble.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    You’re allowed live abroad for 4 years for work and keep your Irish house as your PPR, albeit this is just relief for capital gains. This does not exclude you from still having it as your PPR, albeit not qualifying for capital gains relief on a sale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    This person will more than likely just leave which is a good outcome for you (OP).

    Loads of people here state that the house is not your PPR, and has not been for a long time. This is a full house let, not a lodger or two. When you visit, you are the guest, on a mattress, somewhere in your own home /PPR, that is not a bedroom.

    While this arrangement gives you flexibility to move back to Dublin easily enough, I just don't know why you don't just let the house out in full. Your life and work is in the North West now and for the foreseeable future it seems, so claiming to have a PPR in Dublin seems daft. As to why you want the hassle of all this on top of caring for a relative is another question/negative. The only reason I can see to do this would be for the tax free cash.

    I would say there is lots of this going on, encouraged by a very generous tax break designed for those with a spare room or two to let out, not a full house, while they choose to live elsewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,072 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    For relief on CGT, what has that got to do with tenancy legislation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    Just because someone is living abroad, does not preclude their Irish residence to being their PPR and their lodgers to be licencees.

    In a hypothetical sense, “Mary” lives in Singapore, but keeps her Irish home in Dublin. Mary does not like her Irish home to be empty hence rents out 2 of the 3 bedrooms to “Sheila” and “Brenda”, and keeps all her possessions and the use of the remaining room for when she is home in Ireland. Sheila and Brenda are licensees nonetheless and whilst Mary cannot claim Rent-a-Room relief being not ordinarily resident in Ireland, she must pay Irish tax on her Irish derived income from Sheila and Brenda’s rent.

    This is the type of situation that the OP falls into and which the RTB themselves have described in the following licensee scenario: “persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal license arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants”



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,072 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Did you read the op? There are 4 beds/2 baths, 4 bedrooms rented individually to long term and short term tenants.

    Again, for the two at the back of the room, are you claiming that an owner can walk in, throw a mattress into a living room and say “I’m home, you guys aren’t tenants anymore, you are my guests”?

    I’m mad at myself for engaging with this, I actually hope that girl does bring a case to the RTB and cleans the op out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    Hi can you please define a bedroom under statute? He is still reserving space and retains the discretion to move around rooms.

    it doesn’t matter how long a licensee is a licensee, what matters is the definition of a licensee which this girl meets. You may disagree with the morals of the situation and the OP could possibly have a tax liability, but the girl is a licensee from a legal perspective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    ''persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal license arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants,''


    This is the qualifying conditions from the RTB site. It nowhere put a condition that the owner has to live there or have a room/ bedroom even though the OP dose have such a room. He lets the other rooms individually.

    The RTB will not touch this they cannot. The clauses above are very open ended for a reason it's to give an owner especially where it's there sole property and there PPR leeway I. It's use

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭DFB-D


    They are not qualifying conditions for a licence.

    Just some words on a website to aid understanding which seems to have failed in their purpose...

    Sorry about that! Those particular words appeared after a particular case which involved student accommodation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The OP rang the RTB and they even said she was a liciencee.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I thought the bedsit type arrangement t was not longer legal?

    This was almost giving me ideas of turning my 3 bedroomed let into rent-a-rooms, make a bigger profit for myself 🙄 Then it stuck me, Revenue might get curious.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,115 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Based on what the OP told them.

    It ain't that easy Bass. If it were, every landlord in the country would just have the tenant sign a bit of paper agreeing they were a licencee and that they owner could crash on the couch whenever they wanted - even though they never would. If it goes to court, a judge will determine the contract based on what it is in practice, not what it purports to be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    This will not go to court. The RTB will not take the case as it's outside there remit.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    The OP does not live in the house - this is the relevant exclusion from RTA applying. Status as a licencee is irrelevant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    He has never stated that he lives there intermittently. You are creating facts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    But it is still not a dwelling in which the owner resides!



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    That is immaterial it's he dose not need to live in it he just need unfettered access which he has and he has a personal room in the house. It's his legal PPR. The RTB will not touch this case

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Wherever that rubbish comes from it is not the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (as amended) but an interpretation of it. The relevant exclusion is

    (g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides,


    It is clear from the OP’s own claims that he does not and has not lived there for the past 6 years. It is not where he “resides”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    He resides there it's his PPR as defined by revenue. He may only reside there intermittently at present but it's his only property and his home.

    This has been explained by berocca2016 in 2-3 different posts on this thread.

    She is a liciencee it's his home he is allowed to evict. The RTB will not get involved

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As far as Revenue is concerned very strict rules apply to Rent a Room relief, if Revenue is of the understanding that OP is residing there most of the time, they have been defrauded. It is a serious offence with consequences if uncovered. It only takes one disgruntled paying resident in that house to report to Revenue. That’s how OP may be sailing very close to the wind, never mind about RTB. You can’t have your cake and eat it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,202 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    We all know he is sailing close to the wind with RAR. However that has nothing to do with the fact that she is a liciencee

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on

    Slava Ukrainii



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