Girl renting room in house refusing to move out

amacca

Dear God, if its your PPR then surely its your PPR???

There's another thread on this very forum about a person that had to go abroad and they had sn arrangement with a person to stay and take care of the house and they can't get them out.....with the way the regulations are now if you did let it you wouldn't be able to get rid of tenants either

The law is an ass...a populist ass.....there wouldn't be half as many problems with finding rented accommodation if non paying delinquent tenants could be removed sharpish ........

I have some questions ....

1) if the OP was staying continuously in the house with this tenant ... how long would they have to wait to get them to leave if they wanted them gone?

2) How many days in a week, month, year would the OP have to be present in the house ....or how many days could they be absent and still be able to get bad tenant to leave in a timely fashion if they weren't paying or were causing hassle...ie enforce it?

3)....how does tenant prove the house is not the OPs PPR if its legally designated as such.......does a tenant set up monitored surveillance?.....shouldn't the legal owner of the property's word take precedence if it is their PPR....if not and owner has to prove they were there how do they go about this

4)....are there any extenuating circumstances where someone like the OP is allowed be away from the PPR for an extended period of time and still let rooms under rent a room (licensee agreement).....like travel for work/care for elderly parent?....or even a number of days a week as work involves overnights etc

5) Who in their right mind would bother doing rent a room if you couldn't get non paying/delinquent tenants to go in a timely fashion.....q5 (ii)...if you can't and its a problem getting someone to leave, how long before you can enforce term leaving (assuming everything correct with licensee arrangement)

6) wouldn't it be simpler for law/judge to simply ascertain its your one and only PPR, its not a tenancy and therefore the renter is a licensee and will have to/will be forced to leave.....I mean I'm assuming it's definitely the OPs PPR , they haven't registered it as a tenancy, room was let under that understanding.........wtf would be the point of having a licensee designation if it's so flimsy it could be challenged as not being one even if you were in the house 24/7/365....

dennis72

Have 1 house in ireland don't live full time have 4 bedrooms just let 2 keep 2 for myself when i stay when in dub have all my processions clothes etc

Will not register with rtb

I consider them as licensees but know it is a grey area

I have procession it was fully let to 4 persons.

There will be a complete ban on evictions coming under some temporary emergency legislation, to many LL leaving at once, sinners are all over this 1

I think op maxed his ppr to a compatible fully rented house needs more than mattress on the floor imo

Good look on ur 1 leaving

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447642#Comment_119447642

1. if the op was living continuously in the house, there would be no ambiguity over the rental arrangement. The licensee would affectively be a guest in the house and unless the owner was stupid enough to give the licensee a written agreement with a long notice period, the owner could put the guest out of the house is short, but reasonable time.
2. Considering the op hasn’t stayed there at all, for “several years”, it’s hard to see how it could be argued at the RTB that he/she lives there. I suspect that it would be a lot easier for the tenant to prove that the op has not stayed there, than it would be to prove the op has. The Adjudicator will consider on the balance of probability, who is telling the truth. If the tenant did use their phone to take a few pictures, then the op is shafted.
3. see above.
4. That can be put to the adjudicator, but if I am reading this correctly, the op has not lived there for a long time.
5. Rent a room scheme requires that the owner lives there, if the owner lives there then there is no issue removing the licensee. But the op does not live there, may have a tenancy, and may be committing fraud. So I wouldn’t be trying to claim the high ground if I was him/her.
6. Again, though the op may claim the house is his/her PPR, he/she does not live there, so under tenancy legislation, the renters may not be sharing with the owner.

If the op is claiming RaR relief, even though he/she hasn’t lived there for several years, he/she should be **** themselves that any dispute leads to him/her coming to the attention of Revenue.

Some LLs deserve sympathy for the situation they find themselves in which is not of their making, this is not one of them.

tvjunki

The op got the renter to sign an agreement that states a tenant replacing them. They need to re write the agreement going forward. That is if you are living in the house yourself. You say you are not but you have to prove this if the tenant takes you to RTB.

New laws came in in July of this year. Anyone staying in your property without you staying there now have right to stay indefinite after 6 months tenancy. AT THE MOMENT you can give a tenant notice under certain circumstances. More than likely this will reduce and you may have to sell the property with tenants in situ. You might need to re think your situation and move back in full time.

Garibaldi?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447739#Comment_119447739

Thoroughly agree with this. The OP would be ill-advised to escalate this issue and to draw attention to the facts ie that they are not living in that house.

rogerywalters

Hahahah i hope she takes you the cleaners OP.

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447614#Comment_119447614

The notice is NOT valid, the requirements have already ready been posted on this thread. WhatsApp is not a recognised method of issuing a termination notice.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447739#Comment_119447739

I'm not encouraging OP to escalate etc...I'm just curious how it could be proven they weren't living there and how much having a licensee makes you afraid to leave your own house.....

Are there any solid/concrete rules anywhere regarding how long you can be away or how many days per week you might not be there but person renting will still be considered a licensee and not a tenant?

What are the actual rules regarding how long it takes to get a licensee to leave if you are in the right....

It seems kind of flimsy if person can debate whether its your PPR .... would it be easy for a renter to act in bad faith if they were a licensee and you were there all the time.........could you be dragged into a long running dispute and hassle as a person doing rent a room even if everything is correct on your end

I suppose personaIly I think if a house is your PPR then legally that's what it is.......I'm having trouble with the idea of anyone arguing otherwise, seems like arguing black is white....

spaceHopper

OP the only valid notice is in writing on the correct template from the RTB. Sit tight till the 23 see what happens. Don't let it go past the 31st with serving them the correct notice that is assuming you do want them out.

You've gone about this all wrong, read up on the RTB web site it's all there one mistake and you will lose

Mrs OBumble

OP if she doesn't leave on the 23rd, perhaps the other residents in the house could encourage her along.

They're probably as keen to see the back of her as you are and they have fewer legal restrictions.

dennyk

You're in a corner at this point, OP. Best bet is to wait and see if she actually leaves on the 23rd, and if she doesn't, issue a 90-day written notice (hard copy, not via Whatsapp or something) to terminate her tenancy. You must use the required format for your notice, and you must send a copy of your notice to the RTB at the same time. See here:

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination

Triple-check your notice and make sure it meets all of the requirements; the easiest thing is to use this sample notice as the basis for yours. You don't need a specific reason to issue a notice before mid-September, so don't muddle things by worrying about ASB or who's moving in or any of that. You're choosing to terminate the tenancy, as is your right within the first six months, end of story.

If (when) she doesn't vacate the property in 90 days, then you start the process of legally removing her by submitting a dispute to the RTB. If the RTB rules against her and issues a Determination Order requiring her to vacate the property, she will probably appeal. If she loses the appeal and still refuses to leave, you (and your solicitor) can then go to the District Court to seek enforcement of the order. If the District Court rules against her and orders her to vacate, you must then apply to the court for an order of execution allowing you to have her removed from the property. If the court issues that order, you must then pay a fee to the Sheriff, and they will come by and tell the tenant to leave. If she still doesn't leave, the Sheriff can have her forcibly removed at that point. The whole process will most likely take a year or two in total. At some point she will probably have stopped paying rent to you, but you will most likely never recover those arrears, so best to write that off and forget about it.

At no point should you try to perform an illegal "self-help" eviction; if you do, the tenant will likely file a dispute against you with the RTB and you will lose, no matter how long she was overholding or how much her arrears were. You will end up owing your tenant a significant sum and possibly being ordered to reinstate her tenancy.

amacca

Shouldn't the op seek proper legal advice? If they go through those procedures are they not just legitimising the persons claim to be a tenant?

Scoundrel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257388/girl-renting-room-in-house-refusing-to-move-out

Put the cousin in the room with the mattress until the 23rd problem soled its not rocket science like.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448771#Comment_119448771

The op doesn’t decide whether the girl is a licensee or tenant, the legislation does, and given the fact that the op hasn’t actually lived in the house for several years, it’s hard to see how the girl could be anything other than a tenant, and that the op is likely committing fraud.

Besides, if the girl is moving out on the 23rd, why all the craziness?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448967#Comment_119448967

I'm not sure I'm being crazy by asking what I consider to be relevant? questions

I'm interested in the answers myself

Might be interesting for others doing rent a room too

What kind of risk of problems are they running, how long can they afford to be away from the house before licensee = tenant?

Can they be away a set number of days in a week/year etc?

Are there hard and fast rules in that area?

I'd say they are pretty pertinent and non hysterical etc

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449196#Comment_119449196

The op hasn’t lived there “for several years”, that is the pertinent part.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448967#Comment_119448967

And the thing is you’ll find the likes of the OP and everyone who agrees with them and who may also commit fraud in similar situations, well these people are probably the same ones who would be kicking and screaming about the likes of JP (some waffle went on about the recent pro am and he should be paying tax here instead of giving millions away codswallop) and Bono using legal means such as non resident to avoid paying bucket loads of tax!

tax avoidance does not equal tax evasion.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449217#Comment_119449217

In your opinion....I presume you mean?.....to be fair it does seem very relevant to me, I'd just be reluctant to immediately accept its the only thing that might be taken into account...or that it could be proven easily

In any event, why not humour me....is there any definitive answer to the below or would one have to find out in court?

What kind of risk is a person renting a room running if they leave their PPR , how long can they afford to be away from the house before licensee = tenant?

Can they be away a set number of days in a week/year etc?

Are there hard and fast rules in that area?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449613#Comment_119449613

If you are claiming that the girl is a licensee and you live there, then whether you live there is the most pertinent consideration. By the op’s own admission, he/she hasn’t lived there for several years. This is not a situation where the op is occasionally there, occasionally not.

SteelyDanJalapeno

No wonder landlords are leaving the market, nobody has a clue what's going on

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449706#Comment_119449706

I'm not claiming anything. Im taking the OP at face value and my personal opinion is the girl is overholding and that's wrong too..... but Im all too aware that my opinion means nothing and at the end of the day is the rules/law that matters most of the time (hence me thinking legal advice/representation is appropriate rather than taking anyones advice here)................

I am however asking you if you know the answer to the question(s) I asked.

(The answers if there are definitive ones are not may have relevance and I'm interested myself + you seem like a poster that has knowledge in the area)

So do you know the answers..or are there no definitive ones ?...... a direct yes or no or its down to a judges interpretation etc is fine by me, I'm not trying to trap you or prove any point although the answers when verified one way or yhe other would make me form an opinion regarding renting a room in my house..

Those questions again.....

What kind of risk is a person renting a room running if they leave their PPR , how long can they afford to be away from the house before licensee = tenant?

Can they be away a set number of days in a week/year etc?

Are there hard and fast rules in that area?

How exactly can you lawfully “evict” a licensee? Change the locks and dump their stuff on the street? I’m curious to know the difference between a tenant not willing to leave and a licencee not to willing to move? Obviously tenants who don’t move have all that process to work through with the RTB- but licencees?

From some peoples reports here on the thread, it seems both are quite impossible if the person doesn’t want to move out?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449806#Comment_119449806

There are no hard and fast rules, just a test of where friends znd family would reasonably expect to find you.

But Revenue's treatment of a property owners tax affairs is independent of RTBs view of their landlord responsibilities.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449998#Comment_119449998

I see..and think I understand....what are revenues rules? How do they decide if its not your PPR, what if you have f all family and no friends 😅 ...can one not be free to be found wherever one wants and still have a PPR? ...how does a person renting a room out know where they stand with either revenue or the law if there isn't a clear set of rules somewhere of what constitutes a PPR if it legally being your PPR isnt enough and how one goes about removing a non paying problematic person renting a room in your place if they do turn out to be a licencee and not a tenant etc......and if there are no hard and fast rules then couldn't the overholding girl in the OP just as easily be classed as a licensee etc

It's a bit of a balls and would make me think twice about renting a room anyway....who the **** wants to potentially be saddled with a problem you can't get rid of....in your own home no less.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449894#Comment_119449894

A hotel guest is a licensee. A licensee can be physically dragged out if they refuse to go and their belongings turfed out after them. A tenant is entitled to possession and a residential tenant can only be removed by the processes set out in the residential tenancies Acts.

berocca2016

Lads you can complain all you like that the OP is taking advantage but your PPR is still your PPR if “you could not live in the property because your employer required you to live elsewhere (up to a four-year maximum.)”, so if we take it that the OP is habitually caring for an elderly relative, this is valid employment and keeps the house as a PPR.

This girl is obviously a melt but clearly legally a licensee, albeit it may be easier to let her just leave on the 23rd.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450216#Comment_119450216

The revenue definition of a PPR is not relevant. What is relevant is the RTB definition of a dwelling in which the owner also resides. In most cases the two overlap but not in all cases. There is no point in going to an RTB adjudication with a submission about Revenue law.

berocca2016

RTB doesn’t count as she is a licensee? So no need to go to any arbitration because of the revenue definition which is statute as it clearly implies the girl is a licensee.

berocca2016

1. persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal license arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants,

also to quote the RTB which also agrees that the girl is a licensee, of which the revenue definition agrees….

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448297#Comment_119448297

Are you serious? He had been living abroad, he returned and lived with his parents not in this house. He required outgoing tenants to source a replacement and introduce them to his house. If it was his principal private residence do you not think that he would

(a) present in the house regularly

(b) control who was going to be in occupation of the house.

As with practically all civil matters it would in the end of the day be determined by a judge based on the balance of probabilities.

per Rebekah Vardy, “no judge I swear I did not sell any stories”. But the evidence shows direct and indirect communication with newspapers concerning private stories and the desire for money in respect of them. Judge decides not to believe the claim - much as would by the case if the OP declared that he lived in this house which was actually occupied by multiple people who could all swear that he didn’t and that’s before you even get to his own texts making it clear that he did not.