Girl renting room in house refusing to move out

Some_randomer

So I have a 4 bedroom / 2 bathroom house in Dublin that's registered as my PPR and the bills are in my name. There are 4 people in the house and I rent each bedroom individually to people for short or long term, and they share the kitchen and cleaning of the common spaces etc. I was living abroad for several years and moved back in March 2020 and also rented rooms individually while I was away. In January this year the house became my PPR but I haven't stayed there as I can work remotely with my job and I've been staying in my home town in the north west looking after an elderly relative that hasn't been well.

A girl moved in on March 15th and things were fine for a while, but she started a couple of rows with others in the house, and one night in late June she had a friend around that got abusive and had to be removed from the house. So for these reasons I gave her 4 weeks notice at the end of June to move out by August 1st, and shortly after my cousing asked had I a spare room as she was starting a new job on August 2nd, so I gave this as another reason.

Eventually she said she found another place from August 1st and would move out, but on July 23rd she said the agency informed her there was a delay and that her new place won't be available until August 23rd, and she needs to stay in the room until then. I told her this wasn't possible and she replied with quotes from the RTB website saying I'm required to give her 3 months notice and my behavior was unlawful. I replied saying she was a licensee and not a tenant with links to the RTB site showing the definition of licensee:

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/licences

and also to citizensinformation.ie showing the rights a licensee has when renting an individual room from the owner of a property:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

So she's now stopped replying to my messages and doesn't answer my calls. I'm not in Dublin at the moment but another person in the house told me she's still there. I had told my cousin she could move into the room on August 1st but now she can't and has to stay in a hotel.

So some questions:

- am I correct in saying that each person in the house is a licensee? Point 3 in the link to the RTB website above seems to indicate this

- what are my rights if I want to get this girl to leave. I'll be in the house next weekend, can I pack her stuff and store it somewhere?

Below is a pic of the agreement I have with each person in the house. All advice appreciated.

893bet

For her to be a licencee you have to live there. Which you don’t. Getting your post there or registering it with revenue as your residence don’t change that.

Its a 4 bed house with 4 tenants.

JeffKenna

How is she sharing the house with the owner if the owner is renting out all four bedrooms in a house to four different people...

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426546#Comment_119426546

Fair enough, but what about point 3 in the RTB link above:

What is a licensee:

A licensee is a person who occupies accommodation under license. Licensees can arise in all sorts of accommodation but most commonly in the following four areas;

1. persons staying in hotels, guesthouses, hostels, etc.,
2. persons sharing a house/apartment with its owner e.g. under the ‘rent a room’ scheme or ‘in digs’,
3. persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal license arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants,
4. persons staying in rented accommodation at the invitation of the tenant.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426553#Comment_119426553

If it makes a difference there's another unused room in the house with a mattress, and I tell people before they move in that I may stay there occasionally. My intention was to move back in to the house this year but circumstances have meant that that hasn't happened yet.

Tonesjones

Do you earn the first 12 or is it 14k per year tax free as it is registered as your home?

whippet

By your own admission you don't live there .. the presence of a mattress does not change this

you are quoting it as being your PPR .. which means that you are familiar with the term .. however if you don't live there and haven't lived there for a long time it isn't your PPR.

you might want to check your tax liabilities if you have been claiming the rent a room relief

you might also want to check your responsibilities with regards to your mortgage and home insurance as it might be deemed an investment property by the bank and need a mortgage to reflect that fact .. while you may need a different insurance policy.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426600#Comment_119426600

My intention was to move back in to the house this year but circumstances have meant that that hasn't happened yet.

Danzy

He does live there legally,he is just away at the moment.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426663#Comment_119426663

I'm afraid OP doesn't by their own admission, the presence of a mattress means nothing, this is not, from I can determine an issue re a licensee, this is about the removal of what I believe is a Tenant, a whole different ball game. I'm unsure if there's even a Tenancy agreement in place for the four individuals. This is potentially a mess which won't be resolved easily.

Some_randomer

Thanks for the replies. I'm still unclear on point 3 from the RTB link above, which defines a licensee as:

persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal license arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants,

This seems to say that the owner doesn't need to live in the property. The other points apply in that I have moved occupants around in the past, and I have continuing access to the accommodation.

brigid.coates

Unless the OP is the owner of another property which he may want to sell in the future I don't think his arrangement will cause him difficulty. I know of one individual who had two houses, was living in one and letting the other under the rent a room scheme. This person was giving the "rent a room" house as the PPR to the revenue. You can only have one PPR,obviously, so when the other place was sold it incurred CGT. The OP seems to be spending most of his time in a caring role in the the home of a relative. It is difficult to see how this could interfere with his rights under the rent-a room scheme.

Former Former Former

August 23rd is 19 days away.

It's hard to see any course of action resolving this more quickly than just waiting it out

peacock_lane

Arrangements like the OP's are pretty common where they don't technically live there but come and go freely (if they want to) to collect post or whatever. If you think about it the other way round and someone was describing this as a tenancy we'd all be outraged that the LL keeps a mattress in the spare room and says they might sleep over a few nights here and there. Point 3 quoted from the PRTB website seems to acknowledge that.

As to what you can actually do about encouraging this girl to leave when she says she has nowhere to go until August 23rd I don't know - this forum is peppered with threads about difficulties getting licensees to leave. What you're legally within your rights to do and what you are able to do on the day will be two different things.

dogbert27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426726#Comment_119426726

Why don't you call the RTB and ask?

I don't mean that in a flippant way. Point 3 sounds similar to your situation so they should be able to tell you.

Also they only signed the agreement on the 15th of March so even if they were classed as a tenant it's still only 1 months notice up to the first 6 months.

Browney7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257388/girl-renting-room-in-house-refusing-to-move-out

My own view is that if you are seeking to do licencee arrangements and given the way the market for rentals at present is, you're mad to put "at least 6 months" in that agreement. You're just creating difficulties and confusion for yourself by putting it in there in my view.

I'd also stop calling it a "letting agreement". Deformalise it and make it a "house rules" style document for future reference. You're just putting stuff in writing you don't need to do for the type of arrangement you are trying to implement.

Cuddlesworth

I would think if you tried to evict her, you would be liable to a RTB and then court judgement for two reasons.

You do not live in the property. There have been other cases of Landlords "keeping" a room and bills in their name and chancing their arm with claiming its a licensee situation, it didn't work out for them. If you spent at least a bit of time there maybe not, but it seems like you hardly ever even turn up to the property.

Your arrangement gives her exclusivity of the house, she needs to facilitate and agree to third party's entering not only her room but the entire property. Eg, if I rent a room in my house, they don't get a say who comes and goes. Same with hotels for example, cleaners, workmen, staff can leave and enter your room with only a reasonable expectation of privacy(knocking before hand).

The main difference between a tenant and a licensee defined in legislation is "exclusivity".

POBox19

You have agreed with her a term from 15/3/2022 for at least six months. She should not have to move out until September 15th. Issue a notice to quit before August 15th.

TheWonderLlama

 I had told my cousin she could move into the room on August 1st but now she can't and has to stay in a hotel.

Why couldn't your cousin use the room you have a mattress in? For the time being, at least?

While you might have a case for saying that the tenant is a licensee and no more, the document you have given her is closer to a short-term letting agreement and i think the RTB might also see it that way.

Put the notice in writing, giving her the 30 days required and go from there. I suspect, she won't be moving out on the 23rd either so you need to have all your papers in order. Assume it is like a tenancy.

dennyk

If this goes to the RTB, there's a fair chance they will deem this a tenancy, not a license agreement, based on the facts at hand. Point 3 in that RTB list generally applies to formal situations such as purpose-built student housing, where the property owner maintains control of the entire building and regularly accesses it and moves licensees to other rooms in the property from time to time as required. A landlord trying to turn a tenancy into a license agreement by going "Oh, well, maybe I'll pop by the place to take a nap at some indefinite point in the future..." isn't going to cut it. That could put you in a very difficult situation.

Really the best outcome you can hope for here is that she does actually leave on August 23rd; that way she's gone and the issue is most likely resolved. There's still a chance she could file a complaint with the RTB about your attempts at an illegal termination, but if you're lucky, she won't bother and that will be the end of it.

If she decides not to leave, you're going to be in for a long and difficult fight. Anti-social behaviour from the tenant or their guests is a valid reason for termination if it isn't corrected, but you must follow the correct process and give them a written warning to correct their behaviour, followed by a written notice of termination if they fail to do so. Those notices must follow specific guidelines. If your previous notices didn't follow those formats, they may not be valid.

If she's only been in the property since March 15th, she won't have acquired Part 4 rights yet, so you may want to consider forgetting about the ASB issues and just issuing her a notice to end the tenancy before she acquires Part 4 rights. This will require a 90-day notice, but if you don't issue that notice before she's been in the property for six months, she will acquire Part 4 rights and you can only terminate the tenancy for one of the allowable reasons under Part 4. (Also, note that your cousin does not count as a "family member" for the purposes of a valid Part 4 termination...) That could mean you'll be stuck with her as a tenant indefinitely if she actually does correct her behaviour going forward and your prior notice on the basis of her ASB is deemed invalid.

Whatever you do, you must not perform an illegal "self-help" eviction of your tenant, or touch her belongings. You will likely end up paying out a significant amount of money when she files a claim with the RTB about your actions.

In January this year the house became my PPR but I haven't stayed there as I can work remotely with my job and I've been staying in my home town in the north west looking after an elderly relative that hasn't been well.

This is not how the PPR designation works. Revenue have strict rules on how your PPR is determined. With very few exceptions, you must be occupying the property in question full time as your primary residence. Similarly, a house where you don't reside most of the time would not be considered your "main residence" for Rent-a-Room relief. You should be careful that you are not accidentally committing any sort of tax fraud by incorrectly designating your property as your PPR or main residence when you don't live there.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427708#Comment_119427708

Speaking generally, you can have exclusivity in a licence. But you cannot have a tenancy without it.

However, what the document/agreement purports to be, is not necesarily what determines what it will be judged to be. YYou can explicitly draft a licence agreement, have everyone sign it blah blah and later on, after a dispute, it can be judged to be a tenancy.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426726#Comment_119426726

The problem is that you cannot rely on that explanation.

It's not part of the RTB act, but does refer to student type accommodation blocks as far as I am aware.

No such luck for you I would say.

But look eitherway, she is out in a few weeks, has she paid rent to date?

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428822#Comment_119428822

She has been paying the rent every month in or around the 1st of each month, but she hasn't paid rent for August.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428942#Comment_119428942

Issue a notice saying she's late for rent. Today, if you can. First thing tomorrow if not.

Trust me.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429101#Comment_119429101

Thanks, does this need to be a written letter or will email / WhatsApp message suffice?

893bet

Since you moved back to Ireland in March 2020 have you lived in the house?

From you post you were abroad.

Came home in March 2020 but didn’t live in the house.

It became your PPR in January but you still have not moved there.

Maybe this girl who moved in after it became your PPR could be considered a licensee. All the rest are tenants with tenancy right then? It’s messy. Resolve amicable if it all possible. If she decides to dig heels in then your are in stuck with the law on her side.

spaceHopper

you are in a very grey area and if she went to the RTB you could lose, face facts you don't live there now. See what happens on the 23rd but tell her to pay her rent now. If she digs her heels in your bets bet it to take back the whole house for yourself and when you move back in get new housemates, make sure to say over every week or two for a few nights.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427811#Comment_119427811

Thanks, since July 6th 2022 it looks like the notice period is now 90 days and not 30:

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination#content

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427074#Comment_119427074

I called the RTB today and explained the situation. The person I spoke looked up point 3 of the licensee definition and said it appears that I have a licensee arrangement with the people in the house, but that I should get legal advice to make sure that's the case.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428135#Comment_119428135

@dennyk Thanks for the reply, very helpful info there. Regarding the girl's anti-social behaviour on June I downloaded the "Sample Notice of Termination - Anti-Social Behaviour.docx" document and went through it. In it, it says:

"If a tenant breaches his or her obligations in respect of ASB under the Act, then a warning notice followed by a 28 day notice should be given. The warning notice should allow a reasonable opportunity to either remedy or discontinue the ASB if the duration of the tenancy is 6 months or more. Generally no preliminary warning notice needs to be served in respect of a tenancy if the duration of the tenancy is less than 6 months (a non Part 4 tenancy) or if the nature of the ASB warrants a 7 day notice (see note below)." (Italics emphasis mine).

It goes on to define anti-social behavior as

"To "behave in a way that is anti-social" means to;

(a) engage in behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence, being an offence the commission of which is reasonably likely to affect directly the well-being or welfare of others,

(b) engage in behaviour that causes, or could cause fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any person living, working or otherwise lawfully in the dwelling concerned or its vicinity and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, includes violence, intimidation, coercion, harassment or obstruction of, or threats to, any such person"

It then goes on to say:

There is no requirement to provide a warning notice where the alleged anti-social behaviour equates to (a) or (b) above or where the behaviour threatens the fabric of the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling. In such an instance a 7 day notice of termination may be served. Note that, in circumstances where a landlord is seeking to terminate a tenancy by providing a period of 7 days notice, a high burden of evidentiary proof may be required to show that such a 7 day notice period was appropriate having regard to the circumstances.

On July 27th (8 days ago) I emailed her, attaching a pdf with the following (I gave the date as August 1st as that was 4 weeks from when I first asked her to move out):

Dear ...,

I am hereby requesting you to move out of the room by August 1st 2022. This is due to your abusive behaviour towards me and other people in the house, and also the risk of violence that other people in the house were exposed to when your friend got violent and had to be physically removed from the house.

I haven't reported this incident to the Gardai yet but I am planning to and I'll also be asking other people in the house to act as witnesses.

Regards,

Some more detail on her anti-social behaviour: on June 27th, from what I was told by her and others in the house, she had a male friend around for dinner who became drunk and violent, and she had to get another male occupant of the house to help her physically remove him. The next day two other occupants messaged me saying they were very shaken by the incident and both said they feared for their safety and wanted to move out.

So from the wording contained in that anti-social behaviour document I think I have grounds for issuing her with a 7 day notice of termination. Would anyone agree?

Thanks in advance.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430118#Comment_119430118

I really wish that people would stop using the terms “licence”, “licensee” etc in this context. The exclusion from the ambit of the Residential Tenancies Act is whether, under s.3(2)(g) is is a dwelling (g) a dwelling “within which the landlord also resides”. The question of whether you “reside” in the dwelling is easily established from your statements in this thread. You do not live there, you have lived overseas and since your return to Ireland you have lived elsewhere. You clearly do not “reside” in the dwelling. Statutory interpretation is an art but the basic rule is a literal nyerpretarion taking account of the context of the relevant statute.

you do not reside in the house and if you tried to get her out legally on this ground you would clearly fail. Even if you fell within this provision you would still be dependent on her willingness to depart as you could not touch her to remove her - that would require a court order.

try and ensure that she’s out by the 23rd. If you persist in your current approach, I would not be surprised if she dug her heels in and then you’d be screwed.

as regards rent a roomrelief and POR for CGT, you are smoking absolute dope there. That’s from 33 years of tax experience.

i’ve now read your last post re ASB notice - that acknowledges her status as a tenant.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430547#Comment_119430547

Thanks @Marcusm - the main reason I mentioned the license arrangement is that I was under the impression that's what I had based on point 3 of the RTB definition linked to previously. It clearly states that the landlord doesn't have to live in a property under certain conditions. From some of the replies I've received since I posted, it seems now that I may not have a licensee arrangement after all.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up rent a room relief or CGT, I never mentioned either of these or stated that I'm claiming them.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430118#Comment_119430118

Just be aware that as the person who answered the phone said, the RTB staff answering the phone have absolutely no experience in applying the law/ know no more than you.

You can get legal advice but I would be 100% you do have a tenancy.

As regards anti social notices, I think one instance would not be sufficient unless of a more serious nature, it is clear the friend was anti social, but not the tenant.

The tenancy is under 6 months and I think that is the way to go here, you can legally terminate with the correct notice but even without legislative notice periods a reasonable person would say 4 days notice was very short... Just be hopeful she leaves when she said she would and I hope you have a deposit to cover the lost rent.

Not much more to say, but definitely research the relevant legislation and get some general legal advice if you want to continue renting. If she leaves you will be lucky, you could have potentially ended up with a far worse situation here, even when you are legally entitled to, terminating tenancies can be difficult if the tenant does not vacate.

spaceHopper

She had a friend over who got violent with her and she had to get him thrown out, not good but she could easily say she was victim of abuse and not a preparator.

The problem here is that she is not getting on with the other flatmates, that's not your problem you aren't a social worker.

Is she from Dublin can she move back home for month?

If you want her out, wait until the 23rd and if she's not gone you serve her with termination under the 6 month rule, you would have until the 14th of September, serve it on the 24th of August

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257388/girl-renting-room-in-house-refusing-to-move-out

You were manipulating the system for profit and now its backfired on you, intentions dont matter all that counts is facts and as it stands there are 4 tenants in the house and you dont live there. You may be liable for Tax and if your home isnt mortgaged as an investment property you could be in trouble there too... If she digs in and pushes the issue legally you'll be losing alot.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432929#Comment_119432929

Thanks @spaceHopper yes she could argue she was the victim and not the perpetrator so I think the ASB angle might not work. She's from another EU country so moving home probably not an option.

Just to clarify, if she doesn't move on the 23rd and I serve her a termination, do I need to put the date she needs to leave on this, and if so what date? According to the RTB a person has 90 days if they're less than 6 months in the property:

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination#content

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433783#Comment_119433783

Yes I'd say it's start over and 90 days hopefully she moves on the 23rd. That's assuming she is tenant and not a licensee. The lowest risk move it to go the 6 month rule and get her out in 90 days. Have you looked for legal advice? If they say she isn't a tenant but at a RTB tribunal they say she is your 6 months will have expired.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433904#Comment_119433904

Ok thanks, haven't looked for legal advice yet but probably a good idea. If she leaves on the 23rd I think that'll be a good result. She hasn't paid rent for August which might be a sign she intends to leave and use her deposit as the final rent.

Get Real

If this does resolve itself and she moves out, I'd seriously advise you to weigh up the arrangement you currently have.

This house may be a ppr in name, but that's all it is. If a tenant in future (or even this current one now) digs their heels in and goes rtb and legal route, it may well be established that in practice its clear you don't live there and they're not a licensee.

Of course, you can claim they are a licensee under section 3,in that you're not living there but continue to have access as an owner.

Where the difficulty arises is even if they are found to be a licensee and not a tenant, you can't avail of the rent a room tax relief using section 3. They might give evidence (and witnesses) that it's clearly not your "sole or main" residence.

If a difficult person got a whiff of this and you are availing of rent a room tax relief, a whole can of worms could be opened and you'll possible have an audit and massive tax bill.

(maybe you're not availing of the rent a room scheme, but if you are, ask can you handle the above possibility. Bearing in mind, this female hasn't left yet either)

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426564#Comment_119426564

Its not your PPR.

If you're in any doubt, phone Revenue, give them your name and tell them what the real situation is!

Your tenant has PartIV tenancy rights.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439670#Comment_119439670

Thanks, how does she have Part IV if she only moved in on March 15th?

Some_randomer

Ok so if I change approach and assume she's a tenant as opposed to a licensee, can I give 30 days notice as opposed to 90 days? The notice periods here state 90 days but that's only from July 6th this year:

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notice-periods-that-a-landlord-should-give

If she moved in on March 15th i.e. prior to July 6th when the notice period changed to 90 days, is 30 days sufficient when she's been in the house less than 6 months?

Seve OB

Sounds like the OP thinks he’s a smart ass and “living there” so that he can get away without paying tax on his rent receivable.

OP you’ve been asked already.

have you ever declared any rental income in this property to the revenue since you bought it?

Some_randomer

Hi, what's that got to do with the current situation?

y0ssar1an22

...

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439937#Comment_119439937

Actually it has to do with the risk you would potentially face if this girl went to the RTB.

If claiming rent a room or not paying tax it could be a very expensive day out in the long run.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439990#Comment_119439990

Fair enough. I do a form 11 tax return every year and have claimed rarr in the past when it was applicable. When I do my tax return next year I'll decide at that point if it applies.

I consider myself very fair to the people I rent rooms to. I charge a reasonable rent, fix stuff when it breaks, keep the place in good order, and help out if people from abroad have queries about life in Ireland, if they need references etc. I'm so fair that I'm going through all this hassle so the others in the house don't have to put up with this troublesome person that I've asked to leave.

Some_randomer

Hi again @dennyk, regarding your answer stating

"If she's only been in the property since March 15th, she won't have acquired Part 4 rights yet, so you may want to consider forgetting about the ASB issues and just issuing her a notice to end the tenancy before she acquires Part 4 rights. This will require a 90-day notice"

I see that the notice period of 90 days only came into law on July 6th 2022, and afaik it was 30 days before this for a period less than 6 months. So even if she is a Tenant is 30 days notice sufficient? I gave her 30 days notice via WhatsApp on July 1st and she acknowledged this when she replied by email on July 25th saying she wouldn't be leaving until August 23rd.

MakersMark

Sorry missed that bit!

She won't have tenancy rights until 6 months,unless she has a lease.

saabsaab

Give it till 23rd then change the locks?

Some_randomer

Thanks, this is what I signed with her:

"One month notice period when moving out".