Girl renting room in house refusing to move out

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430547#Comment_119430547

Thanks @Marcusm - the main reason I mentioned the license arrangement is that I was under the impression that's what I had based on point 3 of the RTB definition linked to previously. It clearly states that the landlord doesn't have to live in a property under certain conditions. From some of the replies I've received since I posted, it seems now that I may not have a licensee arrangement after all.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up rent a room relief or CGT, I never mentioned either of these or stated that I'm claiming them.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430118#Comment_119430118

Just be aware that as the person who answered the phone said, the RTB staff answering the phone have absolutely no experience in applying the law/ know no more than you.

You can get legal advice but I would be 100% you do have a tenancy.

As regards anti social notices, I think one instance would not be sufficient unless of a more serious nature, it is clear the friend was anti social, but not the tenant.

The tenancy is under 6 months and I think that is the way to go here, you can legally terminate with the correct notice but even without legislative notice periods a reasonable person would say 4 days notice was very short... Just be hopeful she leaves when she said she would and I hope you have a deposit to cover the lost rent.

Not much more to say, but definitely research the relevant legislation and get some general legal advice if you want to continue renting. If she leaves you will be lucky, you could have potentially ended up with a far worse situation here, even when you are legally entitled to, terminating tenancies can be difficult if the tenant does not vacate.

spaceHopper

She had a friend over who got violent with her and she had to get him thrown out, not good but she could easily say she was victim of abuse and not a preparator.

The problem here is that she is not getting on with the other flatmates, that's not your problem you aren't a social worker.

Is she from Dublin can she move back home for month?

If you want her out, wait until the 23rd and if she's not gone you serve her with termination under the 6 month rule, you would have until the 14th of September, serve it on the 24th of August

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058257388/girl-renting-room-in-house-refusing-to-move-out

You were manipulating the system for profit and now its backfired on you, intentions dont matter all that counts is facts and as it stands there are 4 tenants in the house and you dont live there. You may be liable for Tax and if your home isnt mortgaged as an investment property you could be in trouble there too... If she digs in and pushes the issue legally you'll be losing alot.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432929#Comment_119432929

Thanks @spaceHopper yes she could argue she was the victim and not the perpetrator so I think the ASB angle might not work. She's from another EU country so moving home probably not an option.

Just to clarify, if she doesn't move on the 23rd and I serve her a termination, do I need to put the date she needs to leave on this, and if so what date? According to the RTB a person has 90 days if they're less than 6 months in the property:

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination#content

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433783#Comment_119433783

Yes I'd say it's start over and 90 days hopefully she moves on the 23rd. That's assuming she is tenant and not a licensee. The lowest risk move it to go the 6 month rule and get her out in 90 days. Have you looked for legal advice? If they say she isn't a tenant but at a RTB tribunal they say she is your 6 months will have expired.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433904#Comment_119433904

Ok thanks, haven't looked for legal advice yet but probably a good idea. If she leaves on the 23rd I think that'll be a good result. She hasn't paid rent for August which might be a sign she intends to leave and use her deposit as the final rent.

Get Real

If this does resolve itself and she moves out, I'd seriously advise you to weigh up the arrangement you currently have.

This house may be a ppr in name, but that's all it is. If a tenant in future (or even this current one now) digs their heels in and goes rtb and legal route, it may well be established that in practice its clear you don't live there and they're not a licensee.

Of course, you can claim they are a licensee under section 3,in that you're not living there but continue to have access as an owner.

Where the difficulty arises is even if they are found to be a licensee and not a tenant, you can't avail of the rent a room tax relief using section 3. They might give evidence (and witnesses) that it's clearly not your "sole or main" residence.

If a difficult person got a whiff of this and you are availing of rent a room tax relief, a whole can of worms could be opened and you'll possible have an audit and massive tax bill.

(maybe you're not availing of the rent a room scheme, but if you are, ask can you handle the above possibility. Bearing in mind, this female hasn't left yet either)

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426564#Comment_119426564

Its not your PPR.

If you're in any doubt, phone Revenue, give them your name and tell them what the real situation is!

Your tenant has PartIV tenancy rights.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439670#Comment_119439670

Thanks, how does she have Part IV if she only moved in on March 15th?

Some_randomer

Ok so if I change approach and assume she's a tenant as opposed to a licensee, can I give 30 days notice as opposed to 90 days? The notice periods here state 90 days but that's only from July 6th this year:

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notice-periods-that-a-landlord-should-give

If she moved in on March 15th i.e. prior to July 6th when the notice period changed to 90 days, is 30 days sufficient when she's been in the house less than 6 months?

Seve OB

Sounds like the OP thinks he’s a smart ass and “living there” so that he can get away without paying tax on his rent receivable.

OP you’ve been asked already.

have you ever declared any rental income in this property to the revenue since you bought it?

Some_randomer

Hi, what's that got to do with the current situation?

y0ssar1an22

...

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439937#Comment_119439937

Actually it has to do with the risk you would potentially face if this girl went to the RTB.

If claiming rent a room or not paying tax it could be a very expensive day out in the long run.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439990#Comment_119439990

Fair enough. I do a form 11 tax return every year and have claimed rarr in the past when it was applicable. When I do my tax return next year I'll decide at that point if it applies.

I consider myself very fair to the people I rent rooms to. I charge a reasonable rent, fix stuff when it breaks, keep the place in good order, and help out if people from abroad have queries about life in Ireland, if they need references etc. I'm so fair that I'm going through all this hassle so the others in the house don't have to put up with this troublesome person that I've asked to leave.

Some_randomer

Hi again @dennyk, regarding your answer stating

"If she's only been in the property since March 15th, she won't have acquired Part 4 rights yet, so you may want to consider forgetting about the ASB issues and just issuing her a notice to end the tenancy before she acquires Part 4 rights. This will require a 90-day notice"

I see that the notice period of 90 days only came into law on July 6th 2022, and afaik it was 30 days before this for a period less than 6 months. So even if she is a Tenant is 30 days notice sufficient? I gave her 30 days notice via WhatsApp on July 1st and she acknowledged this when she replied by email on July 25th saying she wouldn't be leaving until August 23rd.

MakersMark

Sorry missed that bit!

She won't have tenancy rights until 6 months,unless she has a lease.

saabsaab

Give it till 23rd then change the locks?

Some_randomer

Thanks, this is what I signed with her:

"One month notice period when moving out".

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440597#Comment_119440597

A tenancy agreement can't specify a shorter notice period than required by law for the landlord, only a longer one, so you'd be bound by the statutory notice period of 90 days even if the agreement specifies a shorter notice period.

The legislation concerning notice periods isn't based on the start date of the tenancy; it applies for all notices of termination issued after the date it came into effect, regardless of the start date of the tenancy. If you had already issued a notice with the prior duration before the new regulations came into effect, that would most likely stand as issued, but once the new regulations took effect, any notice issued after that time would have to follow the new notice requirements.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440071#Comment_119440071

Your prior years’ form 11s were, based on your admissions here, “false returns” exposing you to a penalty of up to €126,970 per return plus potential imprisonment. If you did not disclose doubt as to the treatment of this, you are not protected from penalties. You could consider making the equivalent of an “unprompted voluntary disclose” to regularise matters which can limit your exposure to penalties. If you simply change the categorisation of the income without showing the acquisition of a new rental asset you may, based on data analysis software used by Revenue, effectively self-select yourself for a “compliance intervention”.

I am not scaremongering.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440071#Comment_119440071

You can’t decide at any point.

declaring income or claim relief and credits is pretty black and white.

you are clearly committing tax fraud

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440071#Comment_119440071

A house either is or is not your PPR from a tax and occupation purpose. Any claim of rent a room relief for periods it was not would be invalid. I am not saying you claimed it but if you did, all income would be subject to income tax.

While you were abroad, why did you not just rent the house out? The same happened to me and I rented my house out via a proper letting agreement.

I would have some concern that the tenant ( my opinion) could make it difficult for you and that could cost you a lot of money via RTB and possibly Revenue. The other tenants or occupants of your non-PPR also have rights to quiet enjoyment of the house. Saying they felt uncomfortable puts a lot of pressure on you to remedy this. I hope it gets sorted but it's a risk you took on when trying to use the house in the manner you did.

How are you fixed on the NPPR charge? This would have been due also if the house was not your PPR during the period it was in force. Penalties for non payment were significant.

Tar.Aldarion

This person is a tenant, so are the rest of them, and they would have part IV by now I take it. Like others say, hope she leaves and if not you should issue a notice before her part IV rights kick in. The RAR stuff is dodgy, it sounds like you may have already committed tax fraud and may do so again, so if any audit happens that could be disastrous.

spaceHopper

Get legal advice now.

If I was you I would also wait until the 23 and see what happens, if she doesn't move then give her 90 days notice. If she fails to pay rent, give her 14 days arrears notice then 28 days notice to leave. If you go the legal route and she diggs her heals in and stops paying rent. Well you are in for battle.

The ABS stuff won't fly she will claim she's a victim not an offender. Only problem here is she has had rows with the other people in the house. If you aren't living there why are you involved, let the other people in the house sort it out you aren't a social worker

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119441246#Comment_119441246

If you had already issued a notice with the prior duration before the new regulations came into effect, that would most likely stand as issued, but once the new regulations took effect, any notice issued after that time would have to follow the new notice requirements.

Thanks, she moved in on March 15th and I gave her 1 month notice on June 29th (via WhatsApp), so even if it is a tenancy I think 30 days would be valid as she got the notice before the change to 90 days that happened on July 6th.

Tar.Aldarion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446921#Comment_119446921

Unfortunately that form of notice is not valid.

In order for a Notice of Termination to be valid, it must: 

• Be copied to the RTB at the same time as it is served on the tenant.  
• Be in writing (an email will not suffice).
• Be signed by the landlord or their authorised agent, as appropriate. 
• Specify the date of service. This is the date the notice is posted, or hand delivered. 
• State the grounds for termination (where the tenancy has lasted for more than 6 months or is a fixed term tenancy). 
• Specify the termination date and also that the tenant has the whole of the 24 hours of this date to vacate possession. 
• State that any issue as to the validity of the notice or the right of the landlord to serve it must be referred to the RTB within the time period permitted.   
• From 6 July 2022, there is a requirement for the landlord to send a copy of all Notices of Termination to the RTB on the same day as the notice is served on the tenant. The Notice of Termination will be deemed invalid if this requirement is not met.  

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442588#Comment_119442588

This person is a tenant, so are the rest of them, and they would have part IV by now I take it.

Thanks for the reply, she's not a part IV as she only moved in on March 15th. I gave her 30 days notice on June 29th (but only via WhatsApp which she replied to), so even if she is classed as a tenant I think the 30 days notice period should be valid as it was issued before the new notice period of 90 days that happened on July 6th.

I'm planning to wait and see if she leaves on August 23rd like she said she would.

Kaisr Sose

I think the notice should be valid.. Are you prepare to risk this?

Earlier you said she was a licensee in your PPR with limited rights..and now it tenancy terminology you are quoting as may apply if she is actually is a tenant.

It is unfortunate that you end up in the situation you are in, but it's a risk you took in going down the sub-let route of a house that is no longer your home. It may be financially lucrative but its also risky..

If your tenant does not leave as expected or goes to RTB, will you still rely on your gut or social media for advice on what to do?

I think you should get legal advice, and then regularise your affairs and let the whole house out under one letting agreement. Its just not worth messing around in grey areas. Lots of private landlord like you are quitting rental market as the legislation and burden on them is just not worth the risk and effort.