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Right to a house?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You can't answer the question. What you are talking about is nothing to do with the question. The claim is they are benefiting themselves as small landlords. You want to say how they are benefiting themselves in your view. That is irrelevant. They are not legislating or any other actions for small landlords benefit.

    Do you understand the difference?

    As for you reading selective materials that you agree with your views is no surprise. You don't seem to understand politics and people so are missing a HUGE part of the puzzle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,876 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...okay, i will try simplify!

    if they are asset owners, polices are generally directed towards asset price protections...

    ...polices are generally directed towards such, i.e. current first time buyer schemes etc etc, which ultimately keep pushing up prices.....

    ...do you truly understand politics and people, or are you defaulting yourself, similar to some of our politicians, as you and them seem to be missing most of the puzzle here....

    ...noting, theres seems to be a lot of projectionism going on here!

    ...again, times interview included, yet again!




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭growleaves


    If people are being put out of business by legislation I'm going to smell a rat even if I don't know what's going on. That's just me.

    Interference in business to the point where the government are effectively picking winners and losers in the "market" is no small matter.

    The public demanded/is demanding laws to protect nuisance tenants to the point where small LLs have to exit the market? Not seeing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,876 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    under such ideologies, governments are effectively told who the winner and losers are, as the winners effectively write the polices in the first place, again, another global issue, currently occurring.

    we actually need governments to implement protective polices, to help provide everyone with some level of protectionism, and make it a far fairer game, not just for major interest groups, i.e. bigger players etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,103 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    TBF, no one is going to take what you post seriously if you claim you didn’t know there has been a huge exodus of LLs in recent years, at a time when rents are at historic highs, it just isn’t credible considering how widely it has been reported on. Just google and you will find multiple data sources/reports that confirm what you don’t seem to know.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I think you're mistaking what I'm saying.

    I'm aware of that exodus. I'm saying that I'm unaware that the general public demand/ed laws which protect nuisance tenants at the expense of LLs.

    Ray and I are arguing about why TDs disadvantage small landlords not whether it has happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,103 ✭✭✭✭Dav010




  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    I have a friend who often says a line that sums you up it is...

    "an empty vessel makes alot of noise"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,103 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    And you never wondered why you have heard him say it so often?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,210 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You are not listening and obsessed with your own views which most certainly are conspiracy theory based. There is a general public perception that TDs by virtue of being landlords have and do bring in legislation that favours themselves. This is simply not true and provable.

    You think there are verious different benefits to TDs as an asset owning class of people that the punitive measures for landlords benefits TDs anyway. So a select bunch of landlords ALL have the same ideology and believe the same as you on the benefits as you see them. This would also suggest that the large numbers of landlords are wrong to sell up as they should be smart like the TDs and reap the benefits of asset appreciation as a form of making money.

    You certainly have shown utter ignorance of government workings by not understanding how things are implemented and how legislation happens. When the rents/property values were dropping and the government increased taxes and charges while also encouraging tenants to break lease and reduced rent supplements. How is that in anyway a help to increasing asset values? It reduced the value of property further during a a period of great financial insecurity.

    It was a political move to make landlords pay so the government didn't have to. Contra to your belief that politicians are onlu looking out for themselves they actually have to do things to make the public happy whether it disadvantages themselves or not. LPT is a complete fudge to avoid tenants from paying what would have been effectively a poll tax.

    Politicians act on public pressure regardless of it being a good idea or not hence we got RPZ that punished landlords for not raising rent. THe public have lapped up and approved of punishment to landlords. Here you are trying to say none of that matters as they TDs still make money as landlords and rising property prices is actually their game. Do you actually know any politicians? I do and have been there when legislation was being formed and they are no way bright enough to be as organized as you think. Most went ito it to help people but you will never beleive this because you are obbsesed with the idea they are all following the same ideology and coordinated. They aren't

    When the ERSI said investment was needed in construction the government started making plans but the public outcry, just like you view, the TDs were trying to enrich themselves. So they dropped the plan and the housing crisis started moving faster and getting worse. Here you are on the other side saying they did this to enrich themselves and follow and ideology. Both can't be true but people believe both especially if it fits into what they believe already. It doesn't require any facts just belief because many people just don't trust any authority and will be critical regardless.

    I am part of the asset class you talk of and increasing house prices and rent along with the legislation is not helping me. It was cheaper for me to leave a place vacant than rent it out due to the rules. The simpler answer to the mess we are in is they are making mistakes by ignoring the advice and going with popular opinion instead. Like the decision to not keep pushing up retirement age because the public don't like it even though all financial advice say it needs to go up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Your problem there is you are using the term "nuance tenants". They increased the rights of all tenants at the expense of landlords financially and at the cost of their rights. The public wanted more rights and restriction on landlords and the government did it and ignore industry experts. They were warned landlords would leave the market and that is exactly what happened making the situation worse for everyone.

    Here you are saying "I have a secret and know how this has benefited TDs who are landlords but I won't tell you"



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,876 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    okay, have the value of assets, such as property, been generally rising or falling?

    it is completely understandable that landlords are selling up, as the game is effectively rigged against them, and more so towards larger investors!

    yes, property values fell significantly after the 08 crash, but governments and institutions have been pursuing aggressive polices, to rectify this, including, and in particular, qe programs etc , and its working!

    again, i truly believe such political gains, are primarily ideologically based, i.e. not intentional for personal financial gains etc....

    yes, an element of our society have indeed, and in many cases, wrongly demonised landlords, as they to are being very badly effected from these ideologically based polices, hence them running from said markets....

    again, yes it all matters, that such critical social and economic providers, including small time landlords are doing so, for various different reasons, primarily the fact, the alternatives ultimately lead to rent seeking behaviors ad outcomes, i.e. everyone eventually loses

    etc etc

    yes, i have met some politicians, and i generally feel very sorry for them, its truly an awful job.... and the fact, they have been provided with some of the most dangerous tools, in order to try help provide us with our needs, such as neoclassical economics etc etc

    once again, there is no conspiracy! we have fooled ourselves! we have created absolute bullsh1t ideologies, and now they are in a state of collapse, i.e. no conspiracy!

    once again, our housing issues starting all the way back in the 90's, and has accelerated ever since, largely due to these flawed ideologies, once again, evidence in overall debt levels, once again, graph included!

    one again, enrichment is coming from the overall protections in place for asset markets, but once again, ideologically based, i.e. theyre not intentionally fcuking us over!

    your gaining by the default position of the protections in place for the overall value of your assets, which in turn, is doing great harm to non asset owning classes, i.e. your kids, grand kids, nieces and nephews, which in turn is damaging your overall future requirements, health care etc.....

    we call all of these, the facts!

    now i cant make that any simpler!

    ...and round and round we go......



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Asset rise and fall all the time. Pointing to rising property prices is in now way a confirmation of your beliefs and if you studied economics you would know that. Evidenced based logic is important.

    Meeting somebody and knowing them is very different so the answer from you is "I don't know any"

    You are stating your opinion as fact and your opinions is circular and self supporting regardless of facts. There is no making it simpler you don't believe in logic and fact but a belief in an ideology behind it all. Based not on experience nor education on the subject but the belief your job is transferable.

    I know what your view is and disagree. You aren't disagreeing with me, you are just repeating yourself. I gave you a history of what happened to property prices and the governments intervention. No matter what I say proving TDs aren't in it for themselves and much more likely to to make bad decisions based on public pressure you will ALWAYS claim they are enriching themselves OR they are following an ideology. It is the ultimate flip card to make you feel like you are always right and others can't see what you do because you think your very limited knowledge on the subject is correct.

    We won't be going around and around again because you don't even understand the point. I do not disagree with the future economics forecast of asset distribution. You think that society is in decline and collapsing which is patently ridiculous it just changes and that view of the end is nigh is not new along with the past was better. You really don't have any way to have experienced this to know. You are definitely on the spectrum



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    It was a she, i see the herd are coming, just one? you have lost the game od houses thread, you prefer corporations in a right to home thread GET REAL.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,103 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    And you never wondered why you have heard her say it so often?



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    You have nothing to say, i dont want to talk to you, just go away and joun the herd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I read vulture funds are buying up houses in city's, Dublin, Cork, and renting them at very high prices, 2k plus, as they know there's a serious housing shortage ,

    It's like charging people in the desert 5 dollars for a bottle of water they bought in Tesco for 70 cent capitalism with no regulation is ugly and ruthless

    And Germany was always pointed out as a good model for rental price control



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,103 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Do you know whether people are charged more for water in a desert compared to a supermarket? And if you want to use a comparable analogy, it would be the cost of water going up if it was suddenly in short supply and cost a lot to provide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,862 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    look… It’s supply vs demand. That’s the biggest influence on the price of anything. Not just housing…

    supply isn’t great due to the pandemic, population influx and other factors. Space too being one in a lot of Dublin.

    planning departments must have been told to not to stick too rigidly too planning regs as their are properties near me, one which either wasn’t built as per plans or was just approved when it shouldn’t have been… if it wasn’t built to plan it should have been modified or knocked down. You can’t because of the height of the wall, angle of the property, see traffic coming up the incline on the main road… till they are only a few meters away…build anything anywhere anytime is seemingly the plan.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Supply is influenced by planning rules, how many storeys high are the buildings allowed to go up, the cost of materials, band lending rules, how easy is it to get a mortgage, to build a house you need planning permission, the plans must be in line with building regulations. I think there are now fast track planning rules to allow certain buildings to be built faster. Also the no of sites avaidable to buy, also the no of workers avaidable,

    They are not saying build anything anywhere


    Why would a builder not simply follow the plans , drawings as submitted to the council planning debt?

    China can build a town in 6 months, they have millions of workers avaidable to build anything , anywhere

    Any builder in Ireland is very busy right now, it's getting hard to attract workers to ireland including builders

    I made it clear they bought the water for 70 cent, they'll charge the customer dollars for it,

    Like California is building its own factory to make insulin, and sell it at low cost,

    As private company's keep on raising the price of the drug, its a life saving drug. Its not a luxury if you need it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭jim-mcdee


    realised would never earn enough to buy house working in warehouse, went to third level while working part time, graduated, worked 7 years saving deposit, finally getting a house, yes I'm opposed to the idea of entitlement to a house. A system is already there if you can't work and it seems to work very well even for those who can but didn't feel like working. People who say they are working 30 years and still never afford a house, I would be embarrassed to say that, no way could not save a considerable deposit or even buy for cash in that time. If one were so motivated. I concede it is easier to complain though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    Well done. I assume you were living at home while in college. The problem seems to be that people cannot save while paying rent. You may very well be right but i know people who have good jobs with masters degree who say they cannot buy a house in Galway. I would never question them on why they cannot save deposit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭Taylor365


    46 is not a bad age to get your first home.


    Kids? What? 😂


    We're all heading down the route of idiocracy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Look on dailydot.com there's a story of woman bought shed for 2k lives in it got power and aircon installed she lives in Texas where its about 98 degrees heatwave it sounds weird to me theres a few videos of the shed



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I really wouldn't point to China as a positive for housing and development. It is the ultimate ponzi scheme that has china in real trouble.




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Grayson



    The landlord doesn't collect the data, the credit agency does it and give you a rating. Trust me, the germans are more sensitive about data than just about any country in europe. And yes, there's a credit rating agency in Ireland.


    BTW, I had a good tech job. I was well above the average wage, especially when you include bonuses. I just couldn't find anywhere that wasn't an absolute rip off. Can you imagine how bad it is for people who are not on a good wage. Ideally, a young couple on minimum wage should have no problem finding a 1-2 bed flat somewhere in Dublin.

    I'm not asking for a lot, just that I should be able to rent a place and have some security.

    Germany has a similar minimum wage to Ireland. I didn't flee to a low wage economy. It's not like I went to moldova or thailand.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_minimum_wage

    And housing is a basic necessity. I'm not whinging about not having an expensive car. Can you imagine if people left Ireland because food or education or healthcare was too expensive?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Comparing the German market to Ireland is very misleading. They are in the situation they are in because of massive death and destruction along with what was effectively free money. We were a very poor country until the 90s and couldn't invest money historically. We effectively tried to be a socialist country with no resources until we joined the EU in the 1970s. The EU helped us to move from 90% of our economy based on farming to where it is now about 2%. That was always going to have a cost implication on other areas



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    You're excusing the Irish property market by saying the 80 years ago some German cities were flattened?

    You know the Irish property market is an anomaly. The government has never had a proper national housing strategy. We restrict people building up so we have a shortage of apartments. We spread out in a massive urban sprawl building estates which house far less people per hectare. We abandoned social housing, which every other European country focuses on. And when the government, i.e NAMA, had a large stock of housing, they sold it off to the highest bidder en masse.

    The simple fact is that your average Irish citizen on an average wage should be able to afford to live in Ireland, at roughly the same standard that they can in other european countries. hell, people on minimum wages should be able to afford it. They can't. I hate SF but I can see them getting in on the next election because the parties in government have created this mess and are doing feck all to fix it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Yes Germany got a huge set-up that we never had and it much easier to maintain that situation after the fact. Lots of people were very happy that the government sold our social housing to the residents.

    Funny you think that Ireland should be in a situation that don't apply to other European countries. Do you really think one average income means you can rent in other European countries? Are they the same standards as here? I have friends all over and where they live wouldn't be legal here. Lots of bad planing by government here mostly following populist opinions. Removing bedsit from the market was seen as a good thing but a huge issue in reducing rentals. Nothing happens in a vacuum



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