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Right to a house?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I suspect their constituents are pretty satisfied with job they are doing. They may be many things, but only a fool thinks the Healy-Rae’s are incompetent. All politics is local first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    That's exactly my point i never said that they were incompetent. What i am saying is the average Irish voter is a fool. We vote for the same parties and people to form policies for us and then whinge when they buy up sways of property while the young people are priced out. Thats not public representation thats treating the people who voted a person in as the fools that we are. Quite a lot of our politicians have vast amount of properties. So the people of Ireland are happy to pick-up the crumbs from masters table. I only mentioned Kerry as the best example if what i am talking of.

    The problem is we are selfish (all of us) and we come on boards and whinge but all politics are local is not accecptable in a housing conversation, its not about fixing a pothole in a boreen but we allow our politics to operate at this level. As i said earlier we all get what we deserve and if this is how do it things will never get better. I think we deserve to be where we are at as basically. Its all about ME accross the board. GREAT.

    Housingh for all, this is what our legislators allow.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/double-digit-rent-hikes-for-city-tenants-as-cuckoo-fund-plans-to-beat-inflation-41823512.html

    Post edited by asdfg87 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Just to put that into perspective, there are currently approx 500k rental properties in Ireland, 25% of TDs have investment properties including rentals, farmland and non rentals, down from 33% in 2017 The highest is MH-R with 16, most have far less than that. How that equates to “huge swathes” or “vast amounts” is known only to you.

    MH-R is an independent, he is not in any of the three Government parties.

    The point often made is that most new developments owned by investment funds are forward financed. That means they buy developments in the planning/early development stage and finance the build. Without that finance, both developers and Government have admitted the developments would not have been built. So you say they should not be allowed to do it, but without the finance those new developments would not exist. I do agree that they are maximising profits by charging inflation topping rents, but let’s not be hypocritical, workers are looking for wage increases of the same order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    Your wrong about the invest funds as they have bought two i am aware of that were completed 300 apts at arounf Liffey Valley and a house development at Lepordstown that were completed and people had paid booking deposits on properties and were shut out, thats about 3/4 years ago. My sister sold a house in Clonsilla about a year ago, got 40k more than expected, investment fund, she said she prefer not but was buying elsewhere so had to take best available offer.

    There is no point in talking as Boris said you are part of the HERD. Its the accecptance of people like you that tolerate this that is the principle cause of the problem. You also think its ok for people who we pay €100k + a year to look after the country for us make profit elsewhere a TD with 16 properties is not ok in my view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    TDs are required to declare their interests outside of politics, of course it is ok for them to invest their money just like any other person.

    In relation to forward funding, this has been widely reported on, of course there will be other ancillary investments such as one off housing/completed developments in high demand areas, their investments are not restricted to new builds only,

    Your sister did what every property seller does, accepts the best offer, does that mean the system is broken or make her a bad person? Of course not.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    I know all of that but it is the cause of the problem and the youth of our. country are paying the price, you think its OK i DISAGREE STRONGLY.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Given that the interest rate on Government borrowing has increased by 2% recently and the ECB has ceased covering Bonds, the cost paid by the youth of today will increase significantly if you want the Government to invest the necessary capital to build the houses needed. It’s a **** situation, but as I have said many times, past generations have faced equally stark situations associated with employment and housing, and used their initiative to see hay needs to be done. We have the highest population since the Famine, we are at almost full employment, not just that, due to MNCs we have a high percentage of high paying jobs, so as long as a significant proportion of the population have those jobs/money, particularly in Dublin, the only answer is building more properties. To do that, you need the private sector and you need profit, without both, there are no houses.

    So having some lofty vision of social fairness, everyone gets the house they want, where they want for the price they can afford may be admirable, it is not realistic. If you can’t afford to live where you want, look for somewhere where you can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    The only answer is get people who want to run the country for the people of IRELAND not corporations.

    People who think like you are the reason we are where we at, there is nothing lofty about fairness, past generations were not surrounded by wealth. A signifigant number of these well paid people you mention who have mortgages have no daily cash, some are even going to charities for help and you think all ok. ITS NOT OK.

    You are not of the same view on this topic as me so just leave it. Join the HERD.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    You think that people are digital, people are real. Read the papers all that i say is there, i am not going to waste my time talking to some one who doesn't care if people were living in sheds as long as they are alright.

    Post edited by asdfg87 on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Often mentioned by people. I always ask the same question and never get an answer from the person bringing it up. Maybe you can answer it.

    If the TDs are looking after themselves as landlords can you show me what legislation have they brought in to favour themselves?

    As far as I can see the legislation has been punishment on small landlords which includes TDs



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Usual waffle.

    Your sister had a real life experience, she accepted the best offer, was she wrong? Did you chastise her for selling to an investment fund and tell her she should have accepted 40k less to sell to someone who needs it? I very much doubt it, and if you did, I’m sure she explained the reality of life to you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    The reality is the only person Dave cares about is DAVID, my sister she said she had no choice but accept as she was down-sizing and had to go back to market and compete with your Vulture/Cuckoo friends for a home.

    You have no CONCIENCE when it comes to people, greed and money what you about.

    Good luck.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,747 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Lol you're not in a position to accuse others of whining constantly.

    Have you formed a grassroots lobbying group to advocate for your interests as a small LL?

    No, you prefer to go on the internet and blow off steam with constant complaining.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    And I'm fine with small Landlords quitting the market so long as the market is well regulated. 

    The problem with that is that small time landlords (1 - 2 properties) supply approx. 53% of the rental tenancies. I know you are not suggesting getting rid of them all , but the problem is that the big landlords (REITs etc.) will only want to build in cities and very large towns. They won't want to build in small towns with a population of 1000 - 2000 or in rural areas. The small time landlord can't be done without.

    I do agree with everything else you've said.



  • Registered Users Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Butson


    The greatest buzzword in Ireland...."entitled"

    People use it, politicians use it, the media uses it.

    Yet if you work your ass off, you are 'entitled' to sweet fcuk all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,216 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Of course your sister had a choice, did you tell her you think she made the wrong one?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,747 ✭✭✭growleaves


    TDs have brought in legislation which benefits big institutional LLs.

    TDs are asset owners- presumably on mortgage-free properties given TD salaries. They can sell the assets later on and don't necessarily rely on rent as income.

    The mystery of how TDs benefit from privileging big business we'll just have to ponder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    So you know of no benefits they have given themselves but sure they have. That seems to be the common view which is an assumption contra to actual facts



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,747 ✭✭✭growleaves


    The facts are that FF/FG have brought in legislation which benefits big business and delinquent tenants, and disadvantages small landlords.

    How you want to interpret those facts are up to you.

    I have my own speculations but I'll keep it to myself since I can't prove anything, as you say.

    Small LLs never banded together to form a grassroots lobbying group which I regard as a pity because I think small LLs are good for the country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Then you are paranoid. The claim is TDs are helping themselves as landlords and there is proof they haven't. Yet you still think they are up to a secret plan you have no proof of and won't even say. That is easy to do as you can say anything and just believe it.

    You are basically saying "alternative facts"

    It is simply a fact they didn't benefit themselves through legislation or action. Of course people can say they are getting cash from big development companies so they don't care if they lose money on their properties.

    That is paranoid thinking plain and simple and it is so sad that is the default view of many. At least you know you have no facts and want to dismiss facts that prove the opposite of your view. Can't do anything with that view because it is decided already regardless of any information.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,747 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I haven't dismissed anything.

    The facts are the legislation helps big business.

    I won't speculate or get into why I think that is, so I won't be accused of being paranoid/conspiracy theorist.

    It MAY be as simple as big business lobbies for its interests, NGOs advocate for tenants' interests and small landlords do NOT band together to lobby collectively.

    Presumably some small LLs write to their TDs but it is a mistake to communicate as an atomised individual when other interests act corporately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Facts are it punishes small landlords and people claim TDs are helping themselves as small landlords. It is that simple to point out the claims they are helping themselves AS small landlords just isn't true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    major institutions are also playing a vital role in making sure an environment of continual asset price inflation occurs, at all costs, so everyone's a winner! its well known that polices, such as trade agreements etc, are effectively designed by such institutions, so again, everyone's a winner! this process is far more visible in countries such as america, but theres clearly a similar process occurring here to....

    .....again, this is all ideologically based, our primary government parties truly still believe in the fundamentals of such of ideologies, beliefs such as 'trickle down' etc etc, i.e. you continually implement such polices, believing that the wealth created eventually trickles down through society, but the longer such polices are in place, the opposite actually occurs, i.e. ownership of wealth, which is primarily held in the value assets such as property, actually ends up highly concentrated, leading to whats called a rentier economy, and wealth actually trickles up, leading to rising wealth inequality, which in turn, leads to highly complex and dysfunctional social, political and economic outcomes....



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,747 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Okay but why then do they do it?

    It doesn't just punish small landlords in a void. It throws the competitive advantage to bigger operations which have the scale to survive in business even with delinquent tenants over-holding.

    These bigger players also get tax advantages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Because there is a huge need to get investment to build housing in the country. They are following public will to restrict rents and don't care about small landlords. It is the fact people are claiming that they are looking out for small landlords that is the weird thing along with they are doing this for personal gain with no way to show it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...the personal gain is probably more linked to progression of political career and longevity of such, but since these approaches are now clearly starting to collapse....

    ...then it is the fact, most td's probably are asset owners themselves, but im not convinced their actions are more linked with their potential financial gains, but purely ideologically based....



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    It is you that have the ideological view that there is a vast conspiracy to have economic situation that you believe is happening. You can't engage in any matter on property without your view on a conspiracy.

    The question is very simple what have they done to benefit themselves as small landlords in legislation and actions?

    Your response seems to be they get their ideology in action. That doesn't benefit themselves as small landlords so doesn't answer the question it makes a different claim. I dismiss your view because it requires too many people of different political views to be working together in a way they have never been able to do. It is possible what you are saying is happening but it is not coordinated



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...again, theres no conspiracy here, my views actually come from the work of very respected commentators, from respected academics, to non academics, and beyond, when you start to understand the flaws in the thinking of such ideologies, you begin to understand these opinions, and the factual data that many present in their findings... these beliefs are now actually starting to rapidly grow, as major failures mount....

    ...again, no conspiracies, as theres mounting evidence to support these views, from respected sources, including institutions etc etc

    ...if some politicians are indeed small business owners, theyve probably helped to implement polices that have done great damage to themselves, as these ideologies tend to shaft sme's a lot, while increasing protections to much bigger businesses, as these ideologies tend towards monopolisation of markets.... one of the main 'advantages' though, is the general trend of 'continual asset price inflation', i.e. if they own assets such as property and land, the value of such, is more than likely doing reasonably well....

    ...again, i would see another 'advantage' being longevity and progression of their political careers, you d be surprised how hardwired our societies have become in regards ideas such as 'trickle down' etc etc

    ...again, you re implying theres some sort of conspiracy being conspired, there isnt, its effectively just widescale group think, and extremely dangers thinking at that!



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