Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Excellent you can look after negotiations and sort the whole thing out, think you are onto something here. Just the gentle approach required to smooth things over !!

As regards you being "amazed" the EU couldn't see issues with unionists/Tory press:

1 an Irish sea border is the only possible solution given a hard brexit, so the EU had little choice in demanding that;

2. Of course certain fringe elements weren't going to like it- but the issue is that the UK government amplified, entertained, exploited that to grow & increase opposition to the protocol for its own ends- rather than seeking to damp it and to assist those such as the UUP who could slightly unhappily but comfortably live with the protocol if given the political space to do so.

That part was not inevitable - and even if it was always inevitable, see point 1.

As regards everyone loses in a trade war, sure they do - just like everyone loses in a street fight.

But the weaker guy loses a lot more - and if the weaker guy is demanding the big guy give him his wife, his car, his bank account & his house or else he'll start a street fight, well then the weaker guy is going to have to learn what happens to weak guys in a street fight.

As regards a negotiated "fudge" - either you have as little understanding of the issues as Johnson, or you are deliberately allowing yourself as much room as possible. Of course there will be an accommodation "somewhere in the middle" - but what we can say is that if the EU's position is 100 & the UK's position is 0 on a scale, then the inevitable outcome is going to be approximately 99.999 & fully within the parameters of the NIP.

One can call that "a fudge" - but that's only if one doesn't understand what one is talking about or is being deliberately disingenuous.

In the long term nothing is workable because the Tories are addicted to having the EU as an enemy they can distract voters with. No matter what they agree too now when the next scandal hits they will turn around and either blame the EU for it or use some made up grievance that's the fault of the EU to distract from their own incompetance.

What does it say about the NI politicians who are so against a protocol that is good for the people they represent, blinded by hate.

They are at a disadvantage because they wanted to leave a trade bloc and then signed a deal ( NIP ) in relation to that decision. This is just the poor bullied UK all over again.

Oh indeed there will eventually be a long term settlement. Just not by this government. Maybe the Tories will shift over time or Labour will get into power. However right now retaining power means having a disagreement with the EU and so they will have a disagreement with the EU. I suspect the settlement will also see the UK giving something up, not just the EU though.

Firstly declaring the EU minimizing checks is a fudge in the uk's favour is a long stretch considering the UK has been arguably much more vocal about removing the ECJ and other EU institutional involvement in the NIP, a big part of why when the EU originally suggested minimizing some of the checks and offered the green channel originally, the UK refused. The offer on the table is pretty much the same offer the EU has put on the table since October. The ECJ is still there etc, while taking the EU's offer is the best option for everyone, it wont help the UK with the more extreme elements of the tories and the DUP as the ECJ will remain and continue to be a rallying point for backbenchers to kick Boris's chair. hence why no amount of resolving trade barriers is a solution to this problem because to some groups in the UK government the protocol itself is the issue as it continues to allow EU institutions to be involved. The way I've heard some of them talk about it, they seem to feel like the EU has stolen part of the UK and until that is undone they wont compromise.

The whole point of the Northern Ireland Protocol from the EU's perspective was that for there to be an invisible border between northern Ireland and the UK via the wider withdrawal agreement and eventual UK EU trade deal. They had hoped (or I suspect might have been misled) that the UK would have signed up to be part of the EU programs that are open to non EU members, such as vet and pet licence agreements, in the same way they thought they'd consider keeping the UK involved in euramas or the atomic agreements. None of which needed the UK to be a full member and would have allowed for the EU to have no checks on many goods. But between signing the NIP and the eventual negotiation that led to the very last minute treaty, the deal took a nose dive to the absolute bare minimum trade deal the UK agreed just before the deadline was up.

Perhaps the UK was expecting the same in the opposite and was once again hoping the EU would have given them carte blanche in numerous areas to keep the border as invisible as possible. So it was yet another situation where both sides expected the other to blink and in the end neither did and we ended up in the worst scenario.

Bertie saying the part others are afraid to say out loud. I'd say it's past time the government start sending the kites up for the general public.

There are only two choices, either the EU decides to get tough or that bill becomes law and our place in the single market is over to all intents and purposes. The denial of the obvious is really quite worrying. If you care about the single market you should be looking for protection from the EU. It hasn't happened and, like me, Bertie suspects it's not going to happen as does the British government.

Yep, any day now.

So after Brexit the cost of a basket of goods produced in France,Germany,Netherlands etc is cheaper in Tesco UK than Tesco Ireland.

Just shows what a rip off Ireland is and the Brits go away with murder getting access to European goods with no tariffs.

British businesses have to compete with those EU goods, ultimately hurting the British economy.

Reminds me of the time someone claimed to me that British truck drivers getting paid more (hiring bonuses specifically) was a sign of how the British economy was stronger after Brexit. He's a truck driver.

You could make the same argument about the cost of a basket of goods in Angola vis a vis the cost of a basket of goods in Ireland, and the reason is the same the economy and purchasing power of Angola is shite in comparison to Ireland. Average carpenter in the uk earns £31,700 Minimum carpenter wage in Ireland is €44,500.