Irish birthrate slumps 22% in a decade

06-06-2022 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166383#Comment_119166383

Indeed, and in fact in most countries, NOT having an immigration policy encourages immigration. The point of a policy is to manage an issue in some way (I'd have thought).

downtheroad · 06-06-2022 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166951#Comment_119166951

No they don't. 2 spouses who are working get a standard rate band that is equal to that of 2 single working people.

Why should a standard rate cut off point of 2 people be afforded to 1 person in a couple where only 1 works? There are plenty of tax reliefs available, such as the increased rate band of €9,000, home carer tax credit (where the stay at home parent can earn an income and still keep the credit), tax free income for those who mind children at home, so I don't see what more you think should be done?

06-06-2022 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166994#Comment_119166994

Ah, I'm typing in way too much of a hurry, but you know what I mean anyway. Two spouses who are both working get a bigger standard rate band than two spouses where only one is working. The rest of my post follows from that - as you know there's no such thing as an "increased rate band", as all income above the threshold is taxed at the higher rate.

See this question here:

Why should a standard rate cut off point of 2 people be afforded to 1 person in a couple where only 1 works?

That's a fine question, but why are you asking it of me? Did I say somewhere that "a standard rate cut off point of 2 people should be afforded to 1 person in a couple where only 1 works"?

downtheroad · 06-06-2022 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167043#Comment_119167043

I really don't understand what you're trying to say. 2 spouses who both work get the same tax cut off point as 2 single inviduals. 1 working spouse gets the same tax cut off point as 1 single individual.

If 1 working spouse got the equivalent tax cut off point as 2 single individuals there would be claims of discrimination, there could be sham marriages for tax purposes and it just wouldn't make sense.

06-06-2022 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166479#Comment_119166479

Which I did support, and you ignored completely. And I do mean completely. Not one actual counter except to repeat a dismissal of the content, while shifting the structure of the sentence/query.

And you did make a variety of claims which you haven't supported even slightly.

So, what's the point in continuing? None at all.

Shoog · 06-06-2022 10:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167285#Comment_119167285

The content of that article do not support your claim - how many times do I need to repeat myself.

06-06-2022 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166800#Comment_119166800

First, have things changed much since 2016 and are the figures and assumptions still in date? Anecdotally, a lot of non-nationals left Ireland during the pandemic, but is that borne out by the statistics?

Why would they leave? Welfare support, better quality of medical service than their own countries, free (and better quality) vaccinations, etc... so why would they leave? Unless you have the stats to support that they did leave?

Secondly, and sorry if this causes bother, but if you have a half a million non-Irish living here, the vast majority of whom are Polish, Romanian, British or Lithuanian, I've got news for you. That's not immigration.

Ahh, so they're not foreign born because they're part of the EU.. ? Okay... And they don't cause a shift in the demographics because they're part of the EU? Okay.. And while the largest amounts did come from EU member states, there is a sizable population of those from non-EU states... I guess they're irrelevant?

All of which is immigration. Are they living, working, perhaps availing of welfare here? Then they're migrated here.

You don't think that's immigration. Grand. Our opinions differ.

And before you get all snotty about the British, you'd do well to keep the Common Travel Area and the Good Friday Agreement in mind.

Don't put words in my mouth. Seriously.

And thirdly, instead of making veiled references to mass immigration, do any of y'all have the ability to say what you mean?

Nothing I have said is "veiled". What I said is plain as day.

What, precisely, is wrong with the Polish people, Romanian people, British People or Lithuanian people who live and work here? Name it - and if your answer is some meaningless waffle about them being fine but they should be at home, then name that as well - and name why it's OK to throw them out and grind even more sections of our post-Covid economy to a halt, or better still throw them out and take our Paddies home from all the other places where they're making a living.

It really is amusing because I wrote a number of rather long posts earlier regarding issues with integration, and the low-skilled migrants, but nah.. not relevant to you. You've disregarded what I've written previously, just to throw out your own narrative, and a rather dismissive narrative too (but attempting to associate it with me, as if I've written anything like it. Which I haven't).

riclad · 07-06-2022 1:37am

What Ireland has in common with Japan is the high cost of property, if ordinary working people can't buy a house why would they have children? Property is expensive in Japan in city's , some villages in Japan are almost empty as people grow old. Re the boom the Irish economy could continue to grow because yes there were plenty of young people here but there were also people who would come here to work in call centres shops hotels etc

I'm not saying we are at japan's level of population problems as we basically have unlimited immigration from EU countrys it's not easy to get a visa to work in. Japan unless you have certain technical skills

That's the point of the EU free flow of goods and services people go where the jobs are whatever country that is

Go to any supermarket hotel you'll find most of the workers are non nationals

This is a problem in America too. House prices are rising faster than the average wage at least for gen z people under 30

Experts predict there will be mass migrations due to drought water shortage coastal flooding climate change

07-06-2022 2:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167241#Comment_119167241

I'm pointing out that this means that there's a "sweet spot" in terms of labour force participation for couples where both are working and in an income bracket between €45,800 and €73,600. But if you earn over €73,600, and if there's a disparity in earnings between the spouses, the same tax rules can encourage one or other of the spouses to exit the labour force or to work part-time rather than full-time. That's either good nor bad in my opinion; it's just something that might happen as a result of the tax system. If the government wants to encourage married couples to both stay in the workforce, the tax system helps achieve that policy objective - as long as the household is earning less than €73,600 a year and as long as there isn't a big disparity in wages. Once either of those factors comes into play the tax system is less likely to help.

What's government policy here? If the government wants to maximise the labour force (which it seems to want), the tax system is going the right way about it, but if the government wants more couples participating full-time at the "high-end" of the labour market it might need to change the balance between the general band of €45,800 and the additional amount of €27,800 payable when the second spouse is employed. On the other hand if the government were to decide it wanted more "stay-at-home" parents, the tax system as it's presently configured doesn't help them and the government would have to change it.

I don't understand why you're making the point in your second paragraph. I mean, I understand that it's there and what it means, but it's addressing something I haven't said. To recap, my original point was that for nearly 20 years, the Irish tax system has favoured the well-off putting their domestic and family choices ahead of career, and has favoured lower income people doing things the other way round. By well-off, I mean getting on for six figure incomes, and by lower, I mean in that range between about €45,800 and €73,600. I'm not expressing an opinion on that, other than my original reply to the person who said it was all about women putting career before family. I could have responded to the sexism in the comment, but I was more struck by the economic and taxation angle. The reality is that the economic system we're all working in is designed to funnel people into employment, so the choice between career and family is a bit of an illusion, but if you're lucky enough to be at the higher end of income the choice between career and family can become a bit more real.

chuchuchu · 07-06-2022 2:04am

We should move away from building 3 bed semis, and start building one/two bed apartments.

07-06-2022 2:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167368#Comment_119167368

Why would they leave? Welfare support, better quality of medical service than their own countries, free (and better quality) vaccinations, etc... so why would they leave? Unless you have the stats to support that they did leave?

I asked if the data was around to back up the anecdotes that people have left. I actually don't know if those anecdotes are true, and I didn't see any more recent numbers. That's why I asked - it's what people often do when they're wondering about things.

Ahh, so they're not foreign born because they're part of the EU.. ? Okay... And they don't cause a shift in the demographics because they're part of the EU? Okay.. And while the largest amounts did come from EU member states, there is a sizable population of those from non-EU states... I guess they're irrelevant?

If you say so. I didn't.

You don't think that's immigration. Grand. Our opinions differ.

Isn't that kind of the point? If you only want to read the opinions of people who agree with you, feel free to ignore me.

Don't put words in my mouth. Seriously.

Or what? Sheesh. 🤣

Nothing I have said is "veiled". What I said is plain as day.

Yes, of course it was, to me and others.

It really is amusing....

Sure it is. 😉

I wrote a number of rather long posts

Does the subject mean THAT much to you? OK, fair enough then.

You've disregarded what I've written previously...

Er, no, that's not the case. I haven't read what you've written previously. I'm unlikely to change that situation any time soon. I believe the expression we're looking for here is "plain as day".

...just to throw out your own narrative

Erm, we're back to you needing to have people agreeing with you. I responded to that earlier.

07-06-2022 2:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167748#Comment_119167748

If all we built were 4 beds the birth rate would go up, even if only a little.

1 and 2 beds will encourage lower birth rates but a higher population.

The price of housing is already totally disconnected from the building cost. Its related to demand.

So actually we should just build 3/4 beds. Apartments in cities sure. But not 1 and 2 bed apartments. That just means you lower the standards at high cost. How about 3 and 4 bed apartments.

c.p.w.g.w · 07-06-2022 2:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167758#Comment_119167758

We need a good mix of options...there is definitely a market for 1 bed apartments in towns and cities in this country but they are non existent

07-06-2022 2:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166864#Comment_119166864

Crying babies and toddlers might be a source of (relatively minor) annoyance, but they are not a primary driver of shifts in birthrates in developed countries. In my experience, most parents have a much higher capacity to put up with the various trials and tribulations generated by their own kids than those generated by the kids of others.

By the way, don't be surprised to see most of your friends fail in their determination not to have kids (real or imagined). But in any case they won't always be the age they are now. They will get old, and their bodies and minds will one day fall apart at the seams. Who'll look after them in their old age? Who'll sit beside them, hold their hands and hand them tissues and cups of tea as they look into the abyss in the cancer care system? Who'll mind them when they get Alzheimer's or vascular dementia, or double incontinence? Who'll desperately try to keep them in familiar surroundings so they don't get confused, angry and frightened at being moved into a nursing home? And when all else fails, who'll decide what's the right nursing home to put them in when it's simply impossible for them to be cared for at home? And who'll be the only people left to visit them at the end? It won't be their drinking pals or their workmates, that's for sure.

ILoveYourVibes · 07-06-2022 4:16am

No one can afford kids.

And no one can afford the kinds of property you need to have more than one kid.

Families need two incomes to manage but childcare until kids get to school age is really expensive. So most of one wage goes on childcare and they can't save or plan another kid.

People are scared they will never properly get on the property ladder. They are stressed women are stressed men are stressed.

Coming home from one job to another job at home seems daunting.

It's not that people DONT LIKE kids ...its that if they DO Have kids they want to do it RIGHT. And modern life genuinely makes that very hard for a lot of couples.

They are always people /couples who don't want kids. There always will be.

People are becoming ONE child families. It's less expensive ...when your kid is at school age ..you don't have another one at home to look after and a woman can get back to work quicker.

Also contraception and education generally lower birth rates. Why? We know a lot more about raising kids now ...the standard is higher 😅

riclad · 07-06-2022 4:17am

This is an international trend as people get more highly educated they have fewer children . I don't think any government is planning 10 years in advance Re what will young people need to encourage them to have children. They are busy with other issues energy high prices, inflation, supply chain crisis. I don't think the average 20 year old thinks what ll I do when I'm 65 in terms of having children or not

ILoveYourVibes · 07-06-2022 4:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167777#Comment_119167777

Plus what if your kid i mean your one kid you can afford.. immigrates?

riclad · 07-06-2022 6:00am

I think if you are 30 years old and thinking oh maybe I should have a kid to take care of me when I'm 75 years old

wtf meanwhile we are facing inflation rising energy costs supply chain crisis climate change

People have 1 or 2 kids , quality versus quantity. That's modern life. I think having kids is becoming a luxury for the middle class where people with good jobs are struggling to buy a house more single people are living alone or living with their parents

ILoveYourVibes · 07-06-2022 6:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167815#Comment_119167815

I agree 100%. Lol I wonder will having a large family become like a status symbol lol!

Igotadose · 07-06-2022 7:46am

Who'll look after them in their old age? Who'll sit beside them, hold their hands and hand them tissues and cups of tea as they look into the abyss in the cancer care system? Who'll mind them when they get Alzheimer's or vascular dementia, or double incontinence? Who'll desperately try to keep them in familiar surroundings so they don't get confused, angry and frightened at being moved into a nursing home? And when all else fails, who'll decide what's the right nursing home to put them in when it's simply impossible for them to be cared for at home? And who'll be the only people left to visit them at the end? It won't be their drinking pals or their workmates, that's for sure.

It might be. There are no guarantees in life. Most likely, your kids working for low salaries in nursing homes. Or someone else's kid working for low salary as carer. Don't count on your own children to take care of you when you're old.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058175834/but-who-will-look-after-you-when-youre-old#latest

Wibbs · 07-06-2022 8:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167902#Comment_119167902

Exactly. Having been exposed to the carer world for a few years it opened my eyes to the realities of who ends up looking after whom. Maybe a couple of generations ago when it was more the done thing for kids to look after ageing relatives, and there were usually more kids per family so more chance one would do it, but I certainly wouldn't be relying on it these days. There are care homes full of the old and infirm that see their kids rarely. High days and holidays kinda thing. Hospital wards where elderly patients get few visitors(as likely to be friends as rellies) and don't have anyone to look after them when they get home and so on. This is going back years, but remember the care home that was exposed for some staff mistreating those in their care? It went national news for a while. What wasn't national news and what struck me was that after the expose and investigation and kerfuffle had died down only something like three families took their elderly relative out of the place.

We live in a very time poor society and some of the old social contracts we think are in play and to be relied upon are more shaky than we think imho.

seenitall · 07-06-2022 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164552#Comment_119164552

……… says the man working in finance. In Switzerland. Oh boy, it’s “Let them eat cake” indeed.

You own your own property or even more than one, and even if you don’t, are well set up so you have the option to do so if needed, and even if the need never arises, have so much tucked comfortably away in other assets that it is simply not a concern for your or your children’s futures. You are too far removed from the ordinary plebs’ concerns about their savings, mortgages, rising concerns over their pensions, always scrimping and saving with a view to owning the one asset that will both put a roof over their head in a secure way in their old age and won’t depreciate in time, and that they can leave to their kids who still have to live in the family home. Tell me, should they be putting their money into gold instead? Have you by any chance any good tips on types of investments to be made, stocks etc…….?

Butson · 07-06-2022 10:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166864#Comment_119166864

You do realise that you were once that crying kid and people minded you?

seenitall · 07-06-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168444#Comment_119168444

What does that have to do with the post you are replying to? Whether he realises he was minded as a kid or not, makes not an iota of difference to how he feels about kids or having kids. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, and fair play to people who know this about themselves, rather than becoming reluctant parents on account of some kinda weird “pass it on” argument? Not everyone has it in them to pass it on.

ancapailldorcha · 07-06-2022 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166864#Comment_119166864

I feel like I'd make a good father, particularly if I could get one of the lovely Eastern European ladies at work interested in me. Then I see people with their kids in public and I just can't.

I spent 5 hours at Sofia airport last week. There's very little by way of amenities there. Being an adult with a phone, I was grand but the people lumbered with children were clearly suffering with entertaining them and stopping the little monsters from antagonising each other.

freemickey · 07-06-2022 11:17am

We are destroying ourselves.

A tiny country exposed full-on to globalisation only ends one way and it's all ready becoming clear.

It reminds me of some old science fiction story, there are so few capable people left that they ask a computer what to do with the "problem" of poor/disadvantaged people which at that point form the vast majority, and the computer suggests getting rid of them and honouring them with statues.

A museum is all that'll be left of Ireland and it's people if this is allowed continue. That's the harsh truth.

Mr. teddywinkles · 07-06-2022 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163686#Comment_119163686

Standard of living aren't improving just the cost of living keeps on increasing

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167760#Comment_119167760

Who'll look after them in their old age? Who'll sit beside them, hold their hands and hand them tissues and cups of tea as they look into the abyss in the cancer care system? Who'll mind them when they get Alzheimer's or vascular dementia, or double incontinence? Who'll desperately try to keep them in familiar surroundings so they don't get confused, angry and frightened at being moved into a nursing home? And when all else fails, who'll decide what's the right nursing home to put them in when it's simply impossible for them to be cared for at home? And who'll be the only people left to visit them at the end? It won't be their drinking pals or their workmates, that's for sure.

I gotta be honest, I wouldn’t wish to inflict that sort of misery on anyone, let alone my own child. I’d hope I raised him to value his independence in the same way as I do as opposed to feeling like I only had him because I needed anyone to take care of me when I’m unable to fend for myself. I’ll be shipping out at the first sign of that happening tbh. There are some people who suggest I’ve never been the full shilling in the first place, but I mean when it gets real 😂

The days of two and three generations in the one household with the youngest one left to take care of their elderly parents and be able to live in the family home after their parents have passed on, are pretty rare. I have only one friend I know of who took on the mortgage early with his parents and now owns the property outright, and I know other families where there are two generations of adults in the home, but three generations - two generations of adults and one generation of children, are rare.

I know people who are struggling to get what are called “home care packages”, and I hope my child is never in their position. I have a friends working in care homes and even before Covid, the stories are grim. I love my mother, but I’m dreading the day if she ever loses her independence. So is she, because she knows I’m more than willing to take care of her and she’s terrified of the prospect 😂

Hamachi · 07-06-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168514#Comment_119168514

‘Lumbered’, ‘suffering’, ‘little monsters’.

If that’s your attitude towards children, your assertion that you would make a good father doesn’t hold much weight.

ancapailldorcha · 07-06-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169320#Comment_119169320

Did you even read the post or are you just getting your little dig in anyway?

Irish birthrate slumps 22% in a decade

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