Irish birthrate slumps 22% in a decade

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173286#Comment_119173286

You missed the point though. It's equally a fantasy to think you'll end up hunky dory under your own steam too.

Life happens to you and will often send you into a tail spin, no matter what plans you make. There's a rude awakening in store for many who are clinging to that scenario too.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173500#Comment_119173500

I think a lot of single and childfree people are aware of this. They're just doing their best day by day.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173500#Comment_119173500

But I never said I expected things to be hunky dory either way.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173535#Comment_119173535

I never said that you did.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173515#Comment_119173515

True. However I think that we are setting up numerous issues for our future with how eroded social structures have become and our approach to old age is just one of them. We've a pensions time bomb and a housing time bomb ticking away too. We really need to alter the way we view and organise society sharpish, because the alternative isn't going to be pretty and the expense of just even existing should be the first port of call. Things, as the are, are out of control and it simply cannot continue on the trajectory we are currently in.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173694#Comment_119173694

I don't disagree. We've seen the damage populism and demagoguery can do on imaginary problems. Imagine what could happen when some little fascist decides to start exploiting something real like the housing crisis.

I read that in the UK, over 99% of pensioners own outright. If that number drops, pensions will have to increase dramatically to enable pensioners to rent or cover mortgages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173754#Comment_119173754

Fascists are going to exploit the housing crisis?

I've heard it all now.

joseywhales

This is not my experience at all. My parents retired at 50 , built a new house with cash and have been happily living their retirement for over twenty years now. They have four kids and 12 grandchildren who visit them often and they will only enter a care facility when they literally require round the clock assistance. All four kids have houses but we will never replicate what our parents did by retiring at 50. Defined benefit pensions from your job are a thing of the past. I don't see why I wouldn't spend time with someone, make them dinner, get them in and out of bed and wash them or help them to the toilet. All those tasks are easy enough, don't cost much and only take an hour or two a day if you rotate. It's hardly a lot for the person who gave birth to you. Obviously it depends on circumstances but it's worth the effort if you can do it. Obviously this doesn't account for acute dementia, I know that can be hard with sudden personality changes and memory loss.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173782#Comment_119173782

God forbid someone tackled the housing crisis, they are already being labeled facists before theyve started 🙄

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173961#Comment_119173961

Obviously it depends on circumstances

That’s the key part of your post right there IMO. Everyone’s circumstances are different, and how anyone feels about their own circumstances are going to differ. It’s why when Ulysses asked me what was I afraid of and why was I doing such a noble thing as suggesting that I wouldn’t inflict what I see as misery upon my own child, I didn’t get it, because as far as I’m concerned, it’s just pragmatism rather than any sort of virtue - I don’t want him looking after me, and I don’t want to be as Igotadose put it - put into ‘elderstorage’ 😂

I’m five years off 50 and at 20 I had planned to retire at 50, but now that I’m nearly 50, I don’t want to think about retirement because I enjoy what I do. I could have retired 10 years ago if I’d wanted, and done what many retirees are doing - my mother has a full and active social life and has no intentions of being put into a care home or being cared for or any of the rest of it.

My wife’s matrilineal lineage has scary long longevity with her female relatives living well into their 90’s, and one great-gran-aunt who at 103 was still up at the crack of dawn every day and out feeding chickens. Deaf as a wall, but well able to take care of herself and happy with her own company. She didn’t care much for visitors and she was never lonely. She didn’t have time to think about being lonely!

I’m unlikely to have anything close to that same longevity, but I don’t have time to be thinking about all the potential issues that might happen as I get older, they could happen, but the only thing that scares the bejesus out of me is the thought of the lack of independence and being able to fend for myself, which could happen at any time, regardless of my age. I still wouldn’t want to inflict what I see as that kind of misery on anyone.

cheezums

Longer life expectancies and high birth rates like we've had for the last few decades is not sustainable. Surely people realise that now?

At some point the global economy/civilization has to shift away from the exponential growth model and learn to maintain or readjust.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174217#Comment_119174217

Has there ever been a period in history with sustainable growth/birthrates?

Humans have always been spitting out as many babies as they could, then an event occurs (famine/war/disease) and population plummets, then it starts to exponentially grow again.

its not sustainable with current numbers I agree, food production required to sustain this level of people is decimating the planet, and even it cannot be sustained. Level of nutrition in current crops is much less than that of similar crops grown half a century ago, soils are being depleted of what nutrients they had and not given time to replenish.

But what is the alternative? Other than a cull, how do we go forward 'sustainably'?

Quitelife

Was in the Post office childrens allowance day a few months back. Member of irish ethnic group collecting no less than 1,120 Euro in childrens allowance in front of me and looking for 100 euro notes off staff member as they were moaning 50's and 20 Euro notes was too bulky!!

cheezums

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174350#Comment_119174350

Well that's the million dollar question.

At this point, humans living sustainably is probably a complete pipe dream. The planet is simply too divided to come together and sort this mess out. A lot of the more damaging habits like the industrial production and consumption of beef is too culturally embedded to be changed.

The only hope is major scientific breakthroughs in the next 20 or so years that can immediately course correct. Cold fusion for example.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174475#Comment_119174475

See thats the thing - even some invention like near unlimited energy, while it might free up one population bottleneck, it wouldnt be long until we hit another. The population will continue to grow until it hits an obstacle which stops it from increasing. First its food, then water, then energy - solve all that and we'll keep growing until we run out of space!

As for the here and now and the economics questions of falling birth rates, who knows what the answer is. Declining birthrates lead to economic stagnation like the Japanese, we'll see more and more childless people grow old and need care (and people with children, however proportionally more without), more people growing old and not being able to afford housing come retirement (good luck getting a mortgage as a single person). All of these increase the burden the elderly put on the tax paying younger cohorts, and the economy stagnates as population shrinks.

Solution then is keep pushing up retirement age, or invent some magic carer robots, or euthanasia once you get 'too old'. Whatever happens, it is not going to be good.

Wezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172455#Comment_119172455

Hope that works out for you. I'm very close to my parents but don't see that much of them as they are back in the UK. Even if I wanted to see them everyday I can't. Only one of my siblings is within commuting distance of them and he has no time for them so they are, in a word, fecked. My girlfriends family are all dispersed too, seems to be that a lot of young people end up moving away from home so the idea that your kids will be popping in to see you and take you out in your dotage, while nice, is not necessarily going to be your reality. I sincerely hope you do manage to keep your family close to you and they all find lives close by but you can't count on it and it wouldn't make me consider having children I don't want as some kind of insurance policy against loneliness.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174571#Comment_119174571

You've completely misunderstood my post(s). It's not about me. I'm still a relatively young man with a very young family. Hopefully, I won't be entering my dotage for many decades to come!

It was about one of my parents who suffered from acute Alzheimers for eight years. All I can say, is that at least one of my family was there to visit every day throughout. This was quite difficult at times. For instance, I used to drive 2.5 hours each way one evening a week to spend a few hours with my parent. I was also there every Saturday or Sunday. My siblings also commuted from their respective homes to see our parent multiple times per week. We were lucky in the sense that there are five of us to rotate the visits, our other parent and extended family lives locally, and we have understanding partners who knew that we needed this time with our parent.

We wanted to do this. We didn't see it as a sacrifice and nor do I believe are we morons for supporting our parent in this manner. Throughout those eight years, we came to know many families in a similar situation. In almost all cases, the children were there for parent and were hugely supportive. In fact, I know a few who gave up their careers entirely to care for their parent full time. I truly admire them for that sacrifice. It's not something I could do as I have worked too hard to get where I am; nor would my parent have wanted me to do so.

I'm not saying that this happens in all families. In fact, I'm sure it doesn't in many. However, in my personal experience over 8 years, I saw many families step up to support their ailing parent to the very best of their ability. I didn't see much evidence of children throwing their elderly parent on the scrapheap, which some posters on this thread seem to believe is the defacto outcome.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173162#Comment_119173162

Do you mind if I ask how you feel about your decision to end your life in old age? I mean does it feel empowering to control your mortality in that way or is it scary?

I am not in the least bit surprised our birth rate is declining. Our lives are different compared with 20 + years ago. There are choices which didn't exist back then. The pressure to follow the traditional way of living simply isn't there. Women are able to progress in their careers, take charge of their fertility and terminate unwanted pregnancies. Dating is more difficult so it is possibly taking a little longer to meet the 'right' person. The world feels bigger and with that comes many opportunities.

Personally I have chosen not to have children. A strange choice for anyone who knows me well given my natural maternal instinct and love of kids. Perhaps in a way it's because I'm so fond of them that I won't be having any. In my view it is a massive massive commitment.

I find it hard to understand how people take a relaxed attitude towards deciding to have a child. My friend says to me 'if it happens it happens and everything will fall in to place'. That's not me.

The thoughts of being responsible for another human's emotional and physical wellbeing makes me feel extremely nervous.

Something else I wonder about is a sort of entitlement that some people have when it comes to parenthood. They will have a child at any cost as long as it fulfills their own need. It's as if they lose sight of the fact that children are individuals and are separate from them.

Being a mother or a father is a necessity if you want to care for and raise another human being. It isn't an Instagram page or role to hide behind or a means to validate your own existence.

Choose to have a child because you want to create a new life that you can love and cherish, not to give yourself a sense of identity.

I don't know if I will regret my decision but I can't do something so important based on a future what if.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175091#Comment_119175091

Respect your decision, which you believe is right for you. The only thing I would call out is that there are vanishingly few parents who have a child to populate an Instagram page or to create a role for themselves.

It’s an incredibly rewarding experience, but equally time consuming and challenging. I really can’t envisage that somebody would choose to start a family to flesh out their social media persona. If they do, they are truly idiotic.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175281#Comment_119175281

Its more childless spinsters that are endlessly spamming social media with their pets rather than parents with kids

Irelands cat population will be the through the roof in 20 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172445#Comment_119172445

Some studies have shown that women who have children live shorter lives, while others have show the opposite. Some studies have shown that women who remain childless live longer (nuns are a good example, but they also tend to avoid lifestyle risks). Some research has shown that men who don't have children have shorter lives, but that may be linked to other studies showing that men who are unmarried tend to die younger. On the other hand, there is research to suggest that the more children you have (up to a point) the longer you're likely to live, especially for women.

Do the Child-Free Live Longer? | Time

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175435#Comment_119175435

Like I said, not rigorously studied as there's no incentive. Time magazine's not exactly a refereed journal and the studies it mentions, who knows, no links.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172455#Comment_119172455

I feel desperately sorry for the older people with no family. We always try to have a short conversation with them and try to bring a smile to their faces. It must be excruciatingly lonely to live out your final days with no family. Whilst not all children will step up, chances are that if they live locally, or indeed live in Ireland, they will be around fairly frequently.

I did a bit of volunteering in my youth (not today or yesterday). One of the things we did was visiting older people in local care homes - by arrangement with the homes, we were visiting people who otherwise wouldn't get any visitors. Mostly, the people we visited were men; we'd sit with them in the common sitting area of the home and chat with them, mostly about old sporting heroes and stuff like that. Most of those were either never married or in some cases were widowed, and that pretty much explained why they had no visitors. We did our best as volunteer visitors, but realistically for most people there is no substitute for family.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172488#Comment_119172488

Children do visit. And any I've known who have had to give up caring for their parents at home (or in their parents' home) have done so only when they had no other choice, and even then were riddled with guilt afterwards.

The anecdotes of the bitter and unhappy have no higher claim to quality than the anecdotes of the positive and well-adjusted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172513#Comment_119172513

What do your children say when you say that to them?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175091#Comment_119175091

I think that the 'if it happens it happens and everything will fall in to place' in terms of having children is outdated. First of all it's a long term financial commitment.

Having children means money, money and again money, above everything else and in order to have that, one needs a more than secure and predictable employment, which is increasingly hard to get.

Then it's about university degrees, professional training, advancing technologies, and then there are other known issues, like the endless housing crisis in Ireland, also the ever rising cost of living.

Ultimately, society simply can't just go from one crisis to the next and still expect families to function, having decent income and many children. There is a natural limit to growth. And one thing is for certain: There will be many crisis in the future. The pandemic was only one of them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172556#Comment_119172556

Your experience, and mine. A father of a close friend passed away recently at a very advanced age. I watched 5 of his 6 adult children work so hard to keep looking after him at home, organising everything in shifts so that everyone did their bit and also got a break, including one who travelled back and forth from the UK. The sixth couldn't take part because of the Covid travel rules where they've emigrated. These are people with plenty of other responsibilities. I even waded in myself with help where I could - because that's what you do for a friend who needs it. It's not the first time I've seen that, and it won't be the last. My family, friends, neighbours can all tell the same stories; it's what normal well-adjusted life looks like. Just because a person has seen ugly things and has an ugly and negative disposition doesn't mean that that's how everyone operates.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174993#Comment_119174993

My shaking disorder, and that Alzheimer's/Parkinson's is present in my family drastically increases the risk of getting either as I get older. I've been told that by Doctors for almost two decades now, and while I get regular tests which have come back negative, it's always been a worry for me. I definitely don't want to live in such a state when I'm old. But then, I kinda feel the same way about the frailty that comes with being old too. I've spent time around the elderly, and it's a state of being that has little appeal to me.

So, I've had a rather long to time to consider mortality and the value of living.. what kind of life I want, and the kind of life that I don't want. I've never been scared of death... which resulted me in doing a lot of incredibly stupid activities when I was younger, but the fear of living in pain or a major disability? Losing my identity? Christ, that scares me.

So.. suicide was something I decided on many years ago, and I've spoken to other people with similar feelings on the topic, including those who changed their minds on the whole thing. I'd say there's an element of freedom involved.. because it's something I've considered properly rather than an instinctive or impulse idea.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175467#Comment_119175467

The link refers to studies that have been done. They may well have been published and peer-reviewed; look them up if you want, don't look them up if you don't. But don't whinge about "no links" when you didn't even bother to post anything to back up your own claim.