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Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 39,001 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I agree they should prioritise these operations. If they had to choose between this and a report of a active shooter, or a drug den full of guns. Then obvious this guy is bottom of the list.

    But I highly doubt this unit in the middle of the country are ceasing criminal firearms multiple times a day, every day. You don’t know long they had this info before they had no priorities ahead of it.

    Collectors with deactivated mausers would have authorisation to possess. If this guy declared it properly, it would have been a non-issue.

    I agree an 88 year old man is low risk generally. But it’s a fair old age. I’m sure we’ve all know someone at age suffering from dementia. Unlikely, but the Garda can’t assume it’s not the case. Who knows what the person who reported it actually said.

    I agree with Battlecorp. The Guards from however far away don’t know the guy, his routine, that it was safe, or that he was willing to hand it over. They can’t assume any of that either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    I agree they should prioritise these operations. If they had to choose between this and a report of a active shooter, or a drug den full of guns. Then obvious this guy is bottom of the list.

    But I highly doubt this unit in the middle of the country are ceasing criminal firearms multiple times a day, every day. You don’t know long they had this info before they had no priorities ahead of it.

    Yeah that's a fair point. It's really no my neck of the woods, so I'm not sure what crime is like up there but I doubt any unit is seizing multiple illegal firearms daily. Nevertheless, I think we would all agree that this would have been solved with a simple phone call to clarify the story.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm not knocking your point of view but there are other points of view too.

    There's no way the Gardai will phone up someone they suspect of having an illegal handgun and ask them if they have an illegal handgun. Sure if it was an illegal handgun, that would give them time to stash the illegal gun. The person could say ah, that was a toy and I threw it away last week. Case closed, no evidence of the person having an illegal gun. My point is that the Gardai had no way of knowing it was a deactivated handgun until they went and checked it out.

    I'll agree with you that an 88 year old man isn't exactly a high risk person, but they are not a no risk person.

    People are fixated on the fact that it was a deactivated gun. The Gardai had absolutely no way of knowing it was a deact until they went and looked at it and had it examined.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Known in the community but possibly not known to the Gardai. You say his routine was well known. How would the Gardai know his routine? There's no Garda station in his town of Swanlinbar for any of them to know his routine. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ex-new-york-cop-threatens-to-sue-garda-after-gun-siezed-1.4853054

    Seriously? They didn't know his routine? When it says in the paper he goes every day across the border to buy the IT? No one notices that routine? Yup the decease of the local Garda living in the community is a sad thing...He knew just about everyone and thing on his beat.

    I don't buy the whole "the Gardai saw it in a picture on Facebook" story to be honest. Someone more than likely reported him to the Gardai and who knows what they told the Gardai.

    That's what we have so far as evidence, anything else is speculation. If it is isn't it rather ominous that AGS is starting to trawl our FB accounts or using "evidence" from FB to conduct raids? What next?Dawn raids because of mean tweets or liking an unpopular opinion on FB? Already happening in the UK and EU..So why not here?

    By the way, an 88-year-old man can shoot you just as easily as a 20-year-old so I don't really blame the Gardai for being extra careful. If one unarmed member of the Gardai went out to investigate it and got shot, we'd be giving out why didn't armed Gardai go to investigate someone with a suspected illegal handgun.

    In an active shooter situation? Cmon man! That's a lot different to putting up a few paper targets that don't shoot back at you,as you and I well know.This guy was probably last on a duty range back in the late 1980s,so I doubt he'd be in top tier operator class,and there is no mention of him having any other sort of firearm...WHY is there an immediate assumption that in every case of a firearm, there is some psycho, fully kitted out and ready to dance that requires the heavy squad of door kickers? Even US police forces who have this on a day to day level, don't go overboard with this sort of reaction.

    Also,ask if he had something illegal for all these years. Why would he suddenly decide to show it to the neighbour and his kids?


    The Gardai called to his house with a search warrant, he wasn't there. They entered the house and conducted a search as per the search warrant. It's not like they busted down the door swat style at 5 am and dragged him from the bed kicking and screaming.

    It seems there could be[and I'm speculating here] a problem with the way AGS conducted the search Was it fair and respectful? And was he allowed to observe or be present when it occurred? Seems not going by the article. It seems he headed out for the paper and came home to find the local SWAT team turfing his house upside down?

    Tthere are pros and cons,and no doubt more to the story than let on.But it seems to be a sad state if we need that sort of reaction to an old man and a keepsake.


    Collectors with deactivated mausers would have the authorisation to possess. If this guy declared it properly, it would have been a non-issue.

    2 things there. How would anyone know or what the procedure for checking for a legally held Deact,[ more correctly a permit for keeping a defective firearm??]It's not on the PULSE system at all, and it seems to be rather nebulous as to how this works here as it is seemingly a written letter or permission from the local Superintendent?So do they ring up the Super and ask him has he given Joe Bloggs a permit for a Deact in recent times?

    And also, how many old folks will know about this legislative change?

    This guy moved over here in the late 1980s? and back then if your keepsake didn't have a firing pin and a bit of lead[literally] blocking the barrel, you were grand!!! Seriously it was like that back then.He made the effort to get it deacted,and maybe back then was told,before he moved "that's grand!" by the AGS back then...We can only speculate of course on that.

    It only became an issue when the offensive weapons act came about, and even then it wasn't envisioned for people to become Deact collectors, it was just a way to keep tabs on who owned what in family keepsakes. When you get to his age, you would be more worried about the prostate than your pistol, being in working order.😁

    I agree an 88 year old man is low risk generally. But it’s a fair old age. I’m sure we’ve all know someone at age suffering from dementia. Unlikely, but the Garda can’t assume it’s not the case. Who knows what the person who reported it actually said.

    Folks with dementia or the onset don't generally drive cars anymore either, after all they have to do a medical once a year once they hit the 80s to be fit to drive to prevent such happening.

    Post edited by Grizzly 45 on

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,001 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Seriously? They didn't know his routine? When it says in the paper he goes every day across the border to buy the IT? No one notices that routine?

    How would the guards stationed however many miles away notice him driving 6minutes over the border everyday? He’s going the opposite way and nowhere near them.

    That's what we have so far as evidence, anything else is speculation. If it is isn't it rather ominous that AGS is starting to trawl our FB accounts or using "evidence" from FB to conduct raids?

    Except there’s no evidence. That was literally speculation in the paper.

    FYI Guards can’t trawl FB accounts. Pictures you post are private and only visible to those you allow to view them.

    WHY is there an immediate assumption that in every case of a firearm, there is some psycho, fully kitted out and ready to dance that requires the heavy squad of door kickers?

    Preparing for the worst isn’t the same as assuming the worst. I doubt anyone though they were dealing with a crazed vigilante.

    But I don’t see what’s wrong with sending an armed unit. It’s literally their job. Though, 3-4 would have worked as well.

    It seems there could be[and I'm speculating here] a problem with the way AGS conducted the search Was it fair and respectful? And was he allowed to observe or be present when it occurred? Seems not going by the article. It seems he headed out for the paper and came home to find the local SWAT team turfing his house upside down?

    It does seem like it he was in that it would have been much less of an ordeal.

    Knock, Knock. Here you go.

    2 things there. How would anyone know or what the procedure for checking for a legally held Deact,[ more correctly a permit for keeping a defective firearm??]It's not on the PULSE system at all, and it seems to be rather nebulous as to how this works here as it is seemingly a written letter or permission from the local Superintendent? So do they ring up the Super and ask him has he given Joe Bloggs a permit for a Deact in recent times?

    Only the guards can answer how they knew. But the fact is, he didn’t have permission. So however they checked appears to have been accurate.

    And also, how many old folks will know about this legislative change?

    This guy moved over here in the late 1980s? and back then if your keepsake didn't have a firing pin and a bit of lead[literally] blocking the barrel, you were grand!!! Seriously it was like that back then.He made the effort to get it deacted,and maybe back then was told,before he moved "that's grand!" by the AGS back then...We can only speculate of course on that.

    No need to speculate on that. The guy acknowledges that he didn’t declare it. So we know for a fact that AGS couldn’t have ok’d it. That is essentially the entire issue.

    He moved over in 96. Was it still just a firing pin job then? How difficult to reverse that.

    Folks with dementia or the onset don't generally drive cars anymore either, after all they have to do a medical once a year once they hit the 80s to be fit to drive to prevent such happening.

    True, but I was responding to a comment about 80 years old and risk in general, not this guy specifically. Wasn’t suggesting anything about his health.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,001 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    "Either way what the Hell is a general doing cruising around the battlefield?"

    Seems they learn little and nothing from the general taken out by a sniper. The highest ranking military officer in the Russian Army, basically the Chief of Staff of the Army, was on the frontline last week. And the Ukrainians got wind and launched a rocket in his direction. He caught minor shrapnel, not killed. But that's beside the point. WTF was he doing anywhere near the front line. Sums up how much they are floundering.

    https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/05/01/vladimir-putins-top-military-commander-evacuated-injured-from-ukraine/



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Seems not just these Russian generals get these moments of daftness either.

    Churchill and Monty decided to go boating across the Rhine in 1945 seemed a good idea, and almost got shelled for their pains! Gen Dwight D Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander for Europe took to the skies in a converted two-seater Mustang to view a battlefield in a 30 min flight over Germany as well in 1945, albeit with a heavy fighter escort. As did Reinhard Heydrich, Himmler's right-hand man before he became Reich protector of Czechoslovakia. He volunteered to a Luftwaffe bomber crew as a gunner and got some minor flack injuries for his pains. All of these were top value targets that either side would have felt if they had been lost. Even Zelensjky has been off on a frontline battlefield tour. It must get into these old warhorses heads once in awhile that they must lead from the front. But in the Russians case,its more like a lack of NCOs and mid level management that is getting the top brass into Ukranian rifle and missile sights.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Post edited by Grizzly 45 on

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    This reminded me of the series "Hands" from years back. I can't get my head around how people get to that level of skill.





  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Mr Gussler is still with us apparently,but retired from the craft.

    https://flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/Published/wallaceretires_mb.htm

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    That gun making video is absolutely brilliant. Not only unbelievable skill but yer man has the patience of Job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    I have a Leitrim Chair, specifically a carver made by Pat Surlus, father of Jack Surlus who was in the series Hands.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    And the chance of ruining the whole piece in almost every task. You only learn through making lots of mistakes when you're doing it all by eye.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Over 300 hours in one gun.So that's about 6 weeks of work Mon to Fri starting at dawn and finishing at dusk.No wonder the industrial revolution started with gunsmiths.😝

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Not sure how a Canadian cap on handguns would have stopped a Texan mass shooting that used rifles, but logic never stopped Trudeau. Let’s just hope our own legislators don’t get any ideas.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Same as our lot. Ban a gun because they don't want "an American gun culture" here or Mass shootings. Even though there has never been one, as in America, they'll then claim the ban was the reason why instead of the stringent gun laws that already exist and are enforced not to mention a community with the best values in that we self police ourselves.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Same as their recent semiauto grandfathering/ban, the government there, like here, is heavily anti gun in any form.


    Of course stories like this will never make the rags here 😋

    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/05/28/armed-woman-kills-man-firing-rifle-party/9975381002/


    Hell, even the BBC reported that one, albeit heavily skewed as you'd expect.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    And when there is inevitably another tragedy they will push for stronger gun control, because obviously the previous one wasn't harsh enough, rather than recognizing the futility of the idea which had failed.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Only recently, here, the idea was floated of mental health checks for current/potential gun owners. This idea has been floated many times in the past and dismissed as unworkable by not only gun owners, but medical helth professionals.

    Some have said it is like the NCT. Its a tacky comparison, but apt I suppose. Any person undergoing such mental health checks and/or continued/repeat visits would only be considered "appropriate" at the time of the visit.

    There are a number of problems, most of which I'm not remotely qualified to comment on, but I have my own uneducated opinions. Such as:

    • A person who undergoes an unexpected and sudden "snap" due to an unknown factor.
    • The unpredictability of people. You cannot legislate for the unpredictability of people so someone that is fine for years or decades may not be "fine" for a moment or after a given number of years.
    • Factors which would never cause a person to be a harm to others, but would preclude them from being a gun owner. Meidcation, previous history of mental health issues, but all of which have never shown to be harmful to others.
    • The cost of such care (most likely to be incurred by the shooting community)
    • The availability of such care. There is, from reading from the papers/media, between 5 to 9 years waiting list for such appointments by people that actually need it so would a person have to wait this long for an appointment and then wait yet more years to meet some arbitrary number of appointments before they can apply?

    I'd hazard a guess most of us, in the shooting community, would not have any issues with gun laws as we've been brought up with them. I personally believe there are people that should not have guns and it has little to do with their mental health (I couldn't know it, so cannot comment on it).

    However America has its 2nd Amendment and as such a God given right to them. With over 21,000 gun laws on the books of both Federal and state levels the laws seem to be there, but the sheer volume of guns, the accessibility of them, the lack of proper checks seems not to be working. Don't confuse that sentiment with an agreement to ban them, however as said above having grown up without a right to guns and under very strict gun laws I can see both sides of the argument.

    People should not have their rights infringed because of the actions of others, however something meaningful needs to happen and if that means doing the "dirty" work of figuring out and combatting the causes rather than trying to simply ban the item used then that is what needs to happen.

    This recent vile piece of sh*t that murdered those babies is an example. He waited until his 18th birthday, presumably because he could not get the guns before that age, and then committed this atrocity. What caused him to want to do this, to be able to do this and why did a background check not flag him. genuine question btw. Were there any red flags and if not then how would such mental health checks be effective.

    I understand the argument that if the checks only prevent one such shooting then they are worth it and morally it impossible to argue against such a position, but once again the majority are now being held accountable for the actions of a single perons (or tiny minority) and more importantly being held accountable for actions they did not "perform".

    Imagine being told you cannot buy a fast car because someone used one for a bank robbery.

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    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The other theory coming out about this shooting is this was a straw purchase gone very wrong.This shooter's grandfather was a known felon who cant live in an address or knowingly have anyone possessing a firearm ant their residential address. Got to ask how does an 18 year old go out and buy two of the better grades of AR15s.I can't afford a Daniel defence, but this dropout who made his living from burger flipping can drop 4,500 for two rifles one with a 650 $ holo sight. as well? Mc Donalds pays well in Texas.

    As for the background check in Texas FIK it doesn't exist,and there was nothing illegal about an 18-year-old buying two rifles either. FIK you can also possess and use a handgun with written parental authorisation in the course of your work or instruction in Texas.But you need to be over 21 to purchase outright.He'd still have had to fill in the form 4479 which is a given in any state.But isn't an instant check like the "Brady instant check system" was, until Obama defunded it as it was giving too many false positive returns.

    There are multiple signs,I mean if this kid was cutting his face open," because it felt good" in school, was bullied because of his lisp and being an Emo,and his parents and grandparents don't seem to have noticed this... What's the betting he will also have been found to have been on or off prescribed mood-altering medication, which is Lithium based as well? That is the unspoken common factor in 90% of shootings over there.Some form of prescribed meds. America has a bigger mental health issue with big pharma with much deeper pockets than the gun lobby will ever have.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    If you look closely at that pic with Mr Blackface Tradeau,and his masked minions behind him applauding him like a bunch of performing seals,it tells you a lot about his country. A country that was willing to chuck it's citizens into concentration camps and effectively disappear you for speaking out about a glorified cold that killed about 0.00156% of the global population. They still demand you wear one for five days if you should be insane enough,to want to visit their country,even if you have had your vaccine. A man who claimed that a truckers protest heading to his capital were a few dozen disaffected people, and when it reached a quarter million,fled like a cockroach to a safe location from his capital, where like another dictator he screamed ever more incomprehensible orders at his police forces to arrest people protesting in minus 20 degrees about their loss of lively hoods. While arranging false-flag groups, and telling his police forces to act like utter thugs! So him doing something as irrational as that shouldn't surprise anyone. But Hey! The Canadians voted for him a second time...They have no one to blame but themselves.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Seems to be a thing with former English colonies and the UK itself, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii,India ,Ireland all have strict and mostly ineffective gun laws.Sad to think that 100 years ago the UK had actually more liberal gun laws than the US at this point in history.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It makes sense from a US point of view. They are probably scared it get's into the wrong hands, especially if it's a private sale, not the armed forces of a friendly country.

    Apart from that, I never understood the US attitude towards firearms, 2nd amendment or not. To me a militia would mean membership, regular training and exercise and an organization. The reality is anything but.

    It's like giving somebody without a driver's license the keys to a Porsche and the right to drive as fast as they want.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 747 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Don't take this the wrong way, but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. History has shown that a disarmed populace is easily overcome, (see irish history up to 1916, Russia post 1917, China under Mao, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, ETC ), but once said population gains a means to defend themselves (see US colonies 1774 onwards, Irish patriots 1916 onwards, etc), then things can change. Just remember in 1916 or 1921 there was no speed limit, nor driving license, but in 1776 the draftees of the US constitution had the forethought to out think most modern politicians. And just to debunk your thoughts, Militia

    A militia is generally an army or some other fighting organization of non-professional soldiers, citizens of a country, or subjects of a state, who may perform military service during a time of need, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel; or, historically, to members of a warrior-nobility class.Wikipedia

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    A militia is generally an army or some other fighting organization

    Where/what is the 'organisation' in the USA though?

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This is precisely what I mean regarding a milita.

    Ordinary citizens may join up, be part of this militia besides their regular profession. Also, not anybody who wants to be part of a militia will be accepted to join. Somebody who won't fit the physical requirements for instance, simply won't. Also as I have written before, a militia does regular training and exercises, they follow a routine and a schedule, they have various units and a command structure. The US National Guard would fit this description for instance, both an active guard but also a reserve unit.

    At the moment I am not seeing any of this when it comes to the US gun debate. It's mostly lone gunman loving to kill in schools, shopping malls, gp surgeries, hospitals and workplaces etc... anything but no militia, no reserve, no active guard.

    Some requirements will be pretty basic, like an eye exam. Eye exams are mandatory for a driver's license, so why shouldn't they be for somebody who bears arms? I think it should be pretty clear that somebody with bad vision simply won't get any kind of firearm.



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    I'm not sure what their reasoning was, but I believe most firearms and firearms related products are covered under ITAR.

     A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Notice the comma between the "well regulated militia" part and the "right of the people part". The militia is to be well regulated, not the right of the people to keep and bear arms. You can't possibly say that "shall not be infringed" has any wiggle room for regulations or restrictions, it's plain English. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, that's what it says. This isn't the right forum to discuss the moral qualms of American firearms legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    First off there are TWO definitions of what a "militia " is under the Constitution. This applies to both. Without writing an utter treatise on this topic,save to say there is also the UNorganised militia which is defined as anyone[being PC these days of gender equality] between the ages of 16 and 60 who is NOT a member of the organised militia. Taking at the time that the miltia was considered to be Army,Navy,Marines,Coast Gaurd,and much later the Airforce when this unorganised militia question was considered by the Supreme Court in 1912,I belive. The unorganised militia is anyone not a member of such,and therefore still subject to the 2nd amendment IF it was based solely on this "militia" definition,and there is nothing stopping you from raising a citizens miltia either in any state,but whether it is recognised by the governor of the state is another matter.

    There is also the Supreme court of Smith Vs the United States in 1920,where the defendant claimed that a sawn-off shotgun was protected under the 2A as a weapon of war and therefore any military weapons in civilian hands were the only items covered by 2A. IOW were this implied, as it was never enacted on as Smith died during the case,so it was considered the defender withdrew,but still stands as a ruling. Your M4 that you could legally buy in the gunshop is protected, and not your semi-auto AR15!!!

    In short; There are better legal brains and learned academics who have made a career of arguing the pros/cons of what the fathers meant in this. Seeing that these were men ahead of their time,and put the RTKBA straight behind the universal right of free expression, press and religion,and worded it in simple enough language, that anyone with a room temp IQ can understand, and esp the "shall not be infringed" bit. I cant understand the fuss.

    "I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."

    - George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

    No I doubt quite frankly they [US Govt] are worried about me selling my Strike eagle scope to some lad in a camo jacket and turban with an AK down the road in Limerick!🤣 Esp as they virtually gifted thousands of them,and other equipment that we can only dream of to the Taliban under President Cabbage head's dementia rule and evacuation of Afghanistan.😡 This is in reality more "feel good " legislation brought about by Mr Klintoon,another notorious gun banner,and the one world govt of the UN. While its aspirations were good ,to stop warlords arming their child soldiers in Africa or Beruit, in the end, it affected only the legal gun owners globally in making it harder for us to legally acquire parts or firearms.

    This of course also suits the UN and the EU,as both have the policy of "The least guns in the civilian population the better to easily rule them!"

    And its not that the US doesn't want to sell us stuff,as we aren't N Korea or Ruzzia. It's just that we are too small a market to bother with in Ireland Vs the paperwork it requires. At the end of the day,you can probably source most anything[bar firearms and ammo] in Germany or the UK,France or Italy and get it sent to you here,[at a higher cost obviously] than going thru the paperwork of applying for a Dept of commerce license to export one unit, getting an FFL dealer in the US to ship it outside CONUS, finding a courier company to do the shipment,and paying import duty as well into Ireland.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Some requirements will be pretty basic, like an eye exam. Eye exams are mandatory for a driver's license, so why shouldn't they be for somebody who bears arms? I think it should be pretty clear that somebody with bad vision simply won't get any kind of firearm.

    WOW!! Check your 20/20 Eyesight privileges there you discriminator of the optically challenged NAZI!!!🤣🤣

    Can they not use glasses or contact lenses? Ever hear of corrective eye surgery? So then they shouldn't operate motor vehicles or equipment that causes more deaths in the US than firearms? But seriously,this kind of BullsHT has even been tried on in the EU when the proposed gun ban was fought in Brussels in 2017.E

    The reason all this crap won't work in the US is because of the last line. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!! IOW it doesn't say anything about deer or duck hunting,or mag capacity,or joining an organised militia, or whatever.it says "arms" and at the time most "arms" in civilian hands in the 1700 America were military in nature anyway. Also, if you read up on what happened at Lexition and Concord where this all kicked off,it was because the English wanted the towns' CANNONS, not their muskets. Contrary to president Brandon's assertations that "you could never own a cannon under the 2nd amendment" citizens COULD and DID and DO own them,if they were wealthy enough.In fact the US Navy traces its roots back to civilian privateers who owned their own men of war.Be the equivalent today of Elon Musk owning and operating a nuke aircraft carrier group.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Sure, I understand your point, but then again, I can also see all the other statements separated by a comma. It's not that the one doesn't work with the other, otherwise, it would just be "A well regulated militia" and no connection to "being necessary to the security of a free state",

    In the end, it's one sentence, not different bullet points, it's also not separated by the word "and" indicating another idem. It would be as you described if it would be phrased ", and also the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".



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