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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭ Enzokk



    Clumsy wording from me, they may not be against it but none of them would say it works perfectly. Johnson is using weasel words to turn a nuanced position into a black and white one, just like the Brexit referendum. As I mentioned in my post its not that most parties are against the NIP in NI, but they are in favour of getting it to work better. Johnson is turning that around to being against the NIP in total.


    One more tweet, EU has responded,





  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,368 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Yep. As surely as night follows day, the EU makes clear what it will do and the UK backs down.

    Any day now...

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,136 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    What have SF, SDLP or Alliance said about elements not working ?

    Which things do they want changed or think could work better ?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,368 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    My understanding is that the protocol contains a framework for adjustments that can be made via negotiation and agreement on things like medicines, some foods and such. I think the moderates such as the Alliance would like fewer checks.

    The DUP, unsurprisingly object to its very existence and are disingenuously couching their objection in moderate language.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,130 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    I don't think they have elaborated but I do believe the Alliance spoke of "evolving" the protocol, or something to that effect. salonfire shares an article to that effect, in an attempt to prove(!) the Alliance didn't support it at all. Now, pragmatically they support it today, in that they want the Executive up and running and democracy returned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭ Patser


    EU - Here's our proposals and details of our compromises, we're willing to talk, let's not be hasty


    Britain - We're going to act alone, soon, promise, in ways that are definitely legal, we promise you and will show you then, you know when we actually say what our ideas are, but we hold all the cards!!!!.......... now please meet us to help sort this out before, you know, we put our cards on the table



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭ wexfordman2


    If the DUP refused to go into government, a responsible british government would look and say, as stormont cant function, then it is time to look at the option of a border poll, and initiate, not an actual border poll, but a forum to look at re-unifcation and what it would look like in preperation for a border poll.


    That would frighten the DUP, if they cant form a government in stormont according to the GFA, then use the articles of the GFA to look at alternative governance in NI, and that should include unification.


    Then again, thats what a responsible government would do, not a tory one.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,368 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Northern Ireland is such a confounding factor in British politics. People have no interest in it and yet it could derail Johnson at the next election in conjunction with partygate and the PPE scandal.

    Brexit is supposed to be done. Not only has he resurrected it but he's dragged up the same silly arguments about them needing us more than vice-vearsa, the UK holding all the cards and so on...

    I actually can envisage a scenario where Brandon Lewis and the Tories just decide to call time on NI and opt for a border poll if it becomes toxic enough. The DUP are far, far to the right of virtually everyone else. There is no gain for the Conservatives in going back to bed with them.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Truss's feint is essentially the evocation of an alternative Brexit deal for their alternative reality where the world revolves around its needs.

    In the real world UK purchasing power continues to decline and they haven't even instigated a import inspection regime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭ Enzokk



    As others have noted, its not that they were saying it wasn't working. Its nuanced, nobody has said it is perfect so they have all done the politician thing to say that the protocol is here to stay so we have to work to make it better. Johnson is turning that around to mean they are all against it. See quote below as an example for SF position,


    "Mr Murphy said Stormont’s first opportunity in a long time for a three-year budget has been lost, with all departments currently operating on a care and maintenance basis.

    “If people are going to continue to hang out over the protocol, there won’t be an Executive in place and what we will have is a treading water approach in terms of budgetary spend over the next number of months at least and that essentially loses us one year out of the three-year budget,” he said.

    “What we have to do is take the ideology out of the negotiations and get into the pragmatic dealing of the solutions through the discussions through the British government and the EU, and some of that has already materialised in terms of medicines and other matters.

    “An absence of an Executive here will not have any impact on those discussions.”"


    See the bolded part, talking about making it better and finding solutions. Same as the EU, lets discuss making it better. Not rip it up and start again which is the DUP stance, followed closely by some UK politicians and then the UK government just a little behind them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,710 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    So after all the build up, basically Truss announced today they they will be bringing legislation to the house. They don't have it ready, and even when they bring it it them needs to get past the HoC, likely, and then the HoL, unlikely. Of course the HoL can't stop it completely, but it can be delayed and we are looking at months if not a year.

    What do they plan to do in the meantime? The DUP have said that words aren't enough, they want the legislation enacted, so that is the Assembly ruled out for months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,671 ✭✭✭✭ BlitzKrieg


    My understanding is Alliance wanted more that the UK makes more progressive deals with the EU as a whole which would by extension improve things for northern Ireland (essentially the original intention of the protocol) If the UK agreed for parity on foods with the EU or signed up to the pet passport scheme or numerous other smaller policies that the EU basically offered the UK and many other non EU sates already sign up to, then it will naturally improve things for northern ireland.


    Essentially they are rightly saying that the UK and EU need to get back on the wider negotiation table and it will naturally improve things with the protocol



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 10,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Quin_Dub


    Also - And I may be mis-interpreting this , but it seems that the legislation is not actually changing the Protocol , but puts in place the legal means by which they could change the Protocol at a later date.

    Again happy to be corrected on that , but as I read it it's a "date for a date" kind of thing without providing the initial date either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Brenatron100


    Reporters are saying that operative date will be as much as twelve months hence.

    The EU can no longer tolerate this amateur hour game playing. Discussions on co-operative measures and sectoral trade arrangement should immediately cease until the British Government can demonstrate that it is acting in better faith. They should be warned that if further game playing is seen, full third Country tariffs and border controls will be enacted at Channel Ports and the Tunnel at Calais.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,089 ✭✭✭ storker


    JRM is in charge of identifying Brexit opportunities, I mean a minister just to think!, and still has nothing.

    That's not very fair. He's obviously got his hands full with fretting over civil servants working from home...



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭ Larry Bee


    There's an article in the Guardian on three ways the EU could retaliate if and when they do get around to messing around with the protocol. 


    1 - End the trade and cooperation agreement (TCA) using articles 770 and 779. But they have to give a years notice to do this.

    2 - Suspend the trade parts of the TCA using article 252.

    3 - Start a trade war in a week – article 506. Includes suspending access to EU waters and can escalate it to suspend tariff-free trade.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,828 ✭✭✭✭ Ads by Google


    It would seem that if the legislation doesn't actually do anything, then the EU will have to wait until the legislation is used. No harm has come to the EU yet but retaliation would cause harm. Perhaps it should enact its own legislation giving it unilateral powers to terminate the TCA without the one-year wait. A bit of a show and dance to match the UK.

    It'll have to come to a head at some point or that meme about my father's father's being a Brexit negotiator will turn out to be true. The EU fight is the drug the UK can't give up. We could sign ourselves up to join the UK to solve every problem and they'd invent new ones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭ Patser


    Brussels had paused a legal action against the UK, that they initiated after the 1st unilateral action. They could restart that, and have that ticking along in the background as a countdown, while waiting for the UK to actually enact any legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,884 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    There’s no need for the EU to take pro-active actions yet: the non-implementation of the TCA by the UK is slowly and inexorably yielding its unavoidable consequences.




  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭ looksee


    That is a very clearly expressed article, it looks as though getting rid of all those pesky researchers and scientists to the EU might be a Brexit gain for Rees Mogg - somehow. It will not be a gain for England/Britain.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    That is a very well balanced article as it states views that exactly align with mine. Worth reading. He even quotes Carson - 'What a fool I was ---'



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    That Bastion of British media, the Express seemingly did a poll which revealed the obvious, that 94% of its readers haven't got the Brexit that they voted for.

    I've no intention of reading tha article in that biased rag but I take it for granted that they didn't ask their readers if they knew what actually kind of Brexit they were voting for.

    I presume this just the Express trying to distance itself and its readers from the mess they championed.




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,130 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    I mean, we both know what kind of Brexit the Express readers probably wished for. It was never possible outside the outlandish wet dreams of every Anglocentric Fantasist, yearning for a world that doesn't exist anymore.



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