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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    panem et circenses



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Brenatron100


    Reporters are saying that operative date will be as much as twelve months hence.

    The EU can no longer tolerate this amateur hour game playing. Discussions on co-operative measures and sectoral trade arrangement should immediately cease until the British Government can demonstrate that it is acting in better faith. They should be warned that if further game playing is seen, full third Country tariffs and border controls will be enacted at Channel Ports and the Tunnel at Calais.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    The EU don't need to do anything.

    They made a good statement today, clearly stating that should the UK do something the EU will take action.

    This is nothing but a political play, a throw of the dice, by Johnson and his government.

    The net continues to close on Brexit, leading to increasingly crazy actions, and with each action, and failure, leads to the reality of Brexit becoming more obvious even to Brexiteers.

    Frustratingly long, but it is happening. Johnson is forced to rip up the very deal he won his majority on in order to keep the fin truth coming out.

    JRM is in charge of identifying Brexit opportunities, I mean a minister just to think!, and still has nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭storker


    JRM is in charge of identifying Brexit opportunities, I mean a minister just to think!, and still has nothing.

    That's not very fair. He's obviously got his hands full with fretting over civil servants working from home...



  • Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Larry Bee


    There's an article in the Guardian on three ways the EU could retaliate if and when they do get around to messing around with the protocol. 


    1 - End the trade and cooperation agreement (TCA) using articles 770 and 779. But they have to give a years notice to do this.

    2 - Suspend the trade parts of the TCA using article 252.

    3 - Start a trade war in a week – article 506. Includes suspending access to EU waters and can escalate it to suspend tariff-free trade.



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  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It would seem that if the legislation doesn't actually do anything, then the EU will have to wait until the legislation is used. No harm has come to the EU yet but retaliation would cause harm. Perhaps it should enact its own legislation giving it unilateral powers to terminate the TCA without the one-year wait. A bit of a show and dance to match the UK.

    It'll have to come to a head at some point or that meme about my father's father's being a Brexit negotiator will turn out to be true. The EU fight is the drug the UK can't give up. We could sign ourselves up to join the UK to solve every problem and they'd invent new ones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭Patser


    Brussels had paused a legal action against the UK, that they initiated after the 1st unilateral action. They could restart that, and have that ticking along in the background as a countdown, while waiting for the UK to actually enact any legislation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    There’s no need for the EU to take pro-active actions yet: the non-implementation of the TCA by the UK is slowly and inexorably yielding its unavoidable consequences.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,767 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    That is a very clearly expressed article, it looks as though getting rid of all those pesky researchers and scientists to the EU might be a Brexit gain for Rees Mogg - somehow. It will not be a gain for England/Britain.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That is a very well balanced article as it states views that exactly align with mine. Worth reading. He even quotes Carson - 'What a fool I was ---'



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    That Bastion of British media, the Express seemingly did a poll which revealed the obvious, that 94% of its readers haven't got the Brexit that they voted for.

    I've no intention of reading tha article in that biased rag but I take it for granted that they didn't ask their readers if they knew what actually kind of Brexit they were voting for.

    I presume this just the Express trying to distance itself and its readers from the mess they championed.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I mean, we both know what kind of Brexit the Express readers probably wished for. It was never possible outside the outlandish wet dreams of every Anglocentric Fantasist, yearning for a world that doesn't exist anymore.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's Schrodingers Brexit. They knew what they were voting for but this wasn't what they voted for.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭yagan


    Tip toeing back towards May's original Backstop.

    It is probably via the NIP that GB realigns with the single market. It will be a climb down and a severe loss of face but tragedy + time = comedy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,064 ✭✭✭Christy42



    I am sure that it will be announced that the EU will follow British standards. Obviously these deals will be rubberstamped in Brussels and announced as EU regs to let the EU save face as Boris is merciful to his enemies. However it will all come from Boris and the mighty 52% saviours of democracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,290 ✭✭✭tanko


    Some kind of BRINO was always going to be the only workable solution, it’s just a matter of time until it happens, how much time who knows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    We have heard so much nonsense about the "EU throwing us under the bus" I actually had to check to be sure this was satire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭yagan


    The cost of living crunch looks more severe in Britain because of brexit so there is scope for economic alignment as a temporary measure which would give everyone a break from Brexit. But I can only see that sneaking in while there's a heave against Bojo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    The irony of brits containing about malnutrition and able to afford basic food while the country exports wheat!!

    Not something I would be in any way gleeful about, the stories if deprivation comming from the uk are horrible!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    A country exporting food when it's own population is having affordability problems.

    Where did I hear about that before in the last couple of centuries ?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Wheat - exports from UK as wheat or flour? Is the wheat they export grown in the UK or imported?

    UK wheat is not suitable for bread - it is too soft, and can only be used for Chorelywood bread - that nasty white sliced pan, sold in plastic bags by supermarkets that does not go stale before it goes mouldy.

    How would a country export needed food when the poor citizens of the nation are going hungry?

    Do they not remember an Gorta Mor?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Just as Truss is smashing all around her like a bull in a china shop, amused by this tweet from former British Ambassador Alexandra Hall(-Hall):

    'Liz Truss has become a genuine expert'. It's breathtaking how this pernicious, lawbreaking UK government have the temerity to tell NI that they will legislate for NI to remove the protocol in their best intetests when the majority clearly favour the protocol.

    Johnson did not meet the NI business groups when in Northern Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    "we must take the necessary decisions to preserve peace and stability"

    The irony is strong on that one....

    The decisons the UK made caused the issues, and rather than work with the other co-signatories and co-guarantors they need to be the white(red and blue) knight riding in to save the day...


    It's mental.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Interesting thread here analysing the tactics of Frost and co.

    In summary, the UK is exploiting the war in Ukraine by offering security guarantees to the EU countries most worried about Russia, and in return it believes it can tamper with the Protocol and the EU won't be able to respond with a trade war because the countries threatened by Russia - who Britain is pledging to help - won't row in behind Macron and others because it needs Britain's assistance.

    As the thread points out, quite why these threatened countries would place such faith in a British government so untrustworthy is unclear. Basically we're back to the old divide and rule tactic so beloved of Brexiteers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So effectively, the UK is now banking on going to war with Russia to provide a way out of its Brexit problems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    They were blissfully unaware of the importance of one of their biggest ports and also can't find one of their provinces on a map so I wouldn't be delighted to be going to war with them.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    "It's breathtaking how this pernicious, lawbreaking UK government have the temerity to tell NI that they will legislate for NI to remove the protocol in their best intetests when the majority clearly favour the protocol."

    On todays One O'clock News when Brian Dobson made this very point to the British Ambassador his response was to point out that there is a sizable minority in Northern Ireland opposed to it. So when it came to the Brexit vote only the majority mattered but when it comes to the Protocol the opposite is the case!

    Post edited by Hermy on

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    It's almost like the Unionist veto never left us.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    The good old Great British imperialiasm - play nations like the chess pawns, scheming , and gunboat diplomacy and also starve populations while exporting food (Ireland, India, Burma...).

    Looks like Britannia is coming back. Thankfully this current Great British idiotic lot can't pull it off, it's not 1850 anymore. UK is largely irrelevant now.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    There's no "almost". This entire debacle has shone a light on this reality, and nobody is falling for it. The Brexit Ultras are believing their own hype that the EU is some fractious, chaotic entity that can't make decisions. They're finding out the hard way the truth of this



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    In fairness, the closest thing the EU has to a tradition is its fondness for kicking the can down the road.

    That said, while the UK did initially take the lead with Ukraine, it rapidly lost ground while the EU got its act together much, much more quickly than anyone dared hope. The Brits did send weapons but they just couldn't help but indulge in performative cruelty towards refugees. Meanwhile, Germany under a centre-left coalition u-turned on its entire foreign policy overnight.

    The fact remains that the UK is and always was a supplicant to the EU once it voted for Brexit. It has no experience in negotiating trade deals and is a net importer for goods while being a net exporter for services.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Its not really fair to compare the speed of response from a single country compared to the entire EU.

    I mean people say the EU were slow to react but try tell that to member states like Poland and Estonia down in ground zero of the refugee crisis.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I did point out that once the crisis was underway, the EU did act with remarkably unity. Baffling when you consider that Hungary is a member.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    'Baffling when you consider that Hungary is a member.'

    For the time being.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Peter Hitchens is apparently saying that England should secede from the Union. I actually think the UK breaking up is an excellent idea but I very much get the impression that this is all for some sort of mythical sovereignty that they know does not exist.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Given the dogs dinner they're making of leaving the EU one can only imagine what lies in store if they attempt to leave their own little union.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I mean, the UK is already England plus three satellite states. I'd say they'd ironically be in a strong position for negotiating but it'd cause massive instability. I don't think Welsh separatism is particularly strong politically. Plenty of Scots, probably a vocal minority would probably be up in arms as well.

    It won't happen. Johnson is much too imperialistic to even premit a border poll in NI or a second IndyRef.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It's just more of the majority playing the victim nonsense.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Personally, I like the idea of a federalised UK on the lines of the German lander:

    I do sympathise a bit with people in the north of England. They've been starved of investment for decades, never voted for it and they see the Scots getting both more spending per head and more separatist.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    The idea of an independent, federalised England makes a tonne of sense, but immediately comes up against the mythological centuries of "tradition".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    To be fair, England has historically been relatively stable, particularly when compared to the French. The less said about the literal hundreds of states and statelets of the erstwhile Holy Roman Empire, the better.

    That said, it's funny how tradition and stability were jettisoned when it served Cameron and then Johnson to do so. Rees-Mogg might take pride in being the honorable member for the eighteenth century but only when it suits him.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    You all ready have the NUTS/ISL regions used for statistics which isnt far off that map.

    For anyone complaining about Scotland and Wales getting a parliament this is the fair solution but would cause such a change to how voting works in the UK that I guarantee the same people will cry about it's implementation.

    The true complaint behind all the English whingebaggery is that the conquered won't shut up and know their place like they used to



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Actually on the topic of weapons to Ukraine from the UK, has there been any solid figures for all the dick waving of military support by the different countries to Ukraine? I remember a lot of articles of the UK showing Ukraine military a bunch of stormer AA and other equipment very early in the war, but most media covering the actual fighting has mostly been highlighting the use of Turkish Drones, American stingers and Javelins (of course those could be British bought american javelins).

    I'm trying not to go full conspiracy, but Johnson's government is well known for getting the photo op of them achieving before they actually do it. For example the UK Australia Trade deal was announced as a done deal in June to save Boris from the disaster that was the G7 summit at the time, but the actual deal didnt happen til December.


    And like I said a lot of news stories tend to be framed in terms of what the UK 'will' send to Ukraine X or Y, or will give Poland challenger tanks so they can give Ukraine their T 72 tanks.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,536 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I haven't any sources. I do recall reading credible reports about them sending anti-tank weaponry and providing training before the war broke out. I'd be inclined to believe them. The war is a godsend for arms manufacturers. The obvious aside, they're getting high quality data of how their weapons perform in an actual war. That's going to be worth a fortune.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Not the right thread, but.

    There is a lot of anecdotal but consistent (and verified) evidence on social media (Telegram, Twitter mostly) of UK hardware in Ukraine, from the most-publicised NLAWs to much more obscure armoured 4x4s and, most recently, state-of-the-art Brimstone AT systems. I do believe that the Brits are delivering on the hardware front. Most others as well, e.g. Australian and Dutch APCs, US M777 howitzers, Swedish AT launchers (…)

    As ancapailldorcha just posted, the real-life combat-use data accumulating in Ukraine for each of these weapons and other khaki hardware must be worth its weight in solid platinum, for weapons manufacturers and dealers. Sod politics, for them it’s worth sending the stuff over free of charge just to see if and how well it works, then how to tweak it better.

    Sales reps at weapon exhibitions will be having the time of their commercial life in months and years to come…well, for western arms manufacturers, that is.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think the Russians have discovered that, when in contact with a Javelin missile, their tanks are well - no tanks. Helicopters fare not much better when flying against manpad ground to air missiles like the Stinger, and as for their flag ship, .....



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    It wouldn't matter how many ukrainens we shelter or how hard the Brits make it- ukraine thinks more of the Uk- thanks to British weapons - than us



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation




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