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Fall of the Catholic Church

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    #302
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037116#Comment_119037116

    The context was explained. If you think the Japan experience with separating state and education from religion is not relevant in a conversation about separating Irish State and education from religion. It was also in line with someone that something else will replace the "gap" it leaves when its removed.

    I didn't bring up the romans someone else did, Romans being a great bunch of lads etc.

    Anyway what mono opinion am I allowed to have.



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    #303
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,164 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037171#Comment_119037171

    No, it wasn't. You kept trying to shut down criticism of the Catholic Church with whataboutery and then played the victim when this was pointed out.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #304
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037181#Comment_119037181

    Nope I agreed with valid criticism of an archaic broken institution.

    I just disagreed with sweeping generalization and incomplete and selective view of history.



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    #305
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037148#Comment_119037148


    I could start a BS bingo card on all the emotive terms you are going to reply to me with.

    How about not doing that, as if you say its pointless. (and redundant).



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    #306
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,835 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119036004#Comment_119036004

    Most criminals don’t have an organisation behind them that protects them from being brought to justice.


    Except organised crime and the catholic church,



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    #307
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037270#Comment_119037270

    You mean like criminals who use the state, or police or Judges, or multinational companies, or dictators, other religions.

    You are 100% right. I can only agree.



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    #308
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037270#Comment_119037270

    organised crime would love to be as successful at covering up crimes as the catholic church.



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    #309
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037315#Comment_119037315

    whats the difference

    I would 100% agree with you except I'm not allowed to refer to organized crime.



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    #310
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,006 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037270#Comment_119037270

    That's exactly right. They are untouchable in many respects.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #311
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,485 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037127#Comment_119037127

    What's unbelievable about Brendan Smyth is that he was living in the North and the RUC wanted to bring charges against him. The head of his order gave him permission to hide in the order's HQ, south of the border, for three years. So they knew this guy was on the run from sex abuse charges and assisted him to evade justice. He was eventually extradited to NI (after a scandal which caused the collapse of the government here) and died in prison.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #312
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119036964#Comment_119036964

    And that's related to what I wrote previously... how? You're sidestepping the points made. Which is odd since you introduced them originally.

    Catholic mass is not mandatory anymore. A parents letter to the school is usually enough to get any student out of going to mass, unless that school is primarily a religious school, and openly known as such. In which case, a Muslim wouldn't be going there, because the rules about religious observance would be made known before application to the school was made. In the vast majority of schools in Ireland, operated by the Church, the student has a range of options for avoiding religious instruction.



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    #313
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037127#Comment_119037127

    The thing that always bothered me about the Catholic church is the lack of internal agitation within when they all knew what was going on. The abuse victims had to do it all themselves and the church fought them at every opportunity. The priests and bishops knew who the paedophiles were (are) and moved them from parish to parish but I never heard them going to the Gardai and telling them what they knew. Nobody shouted stop. It was all denial and cover-up. It still is.

    And what about the Brothers and Nuns who didn't know? Should they be painted as being guilty, even though, they'd reported internally the offenses, encouraged investigations, and then, been told to shut up when the priest was moved elsewhere? You do realise that for most Christians in the Church its a vocation that they've committed their lives to, with reinforced ideological indoctrination to obey the commands of their superiors? So.. what were they supposed to do? Go against their faith?

    I find people who claim that they should have, really have little appreciation for the commitment most of them had for the Church. To give that up so easily..

     And yet the Gardai seem to be afraid of tackling the church head on. They are not proactive enough.

    I raised a point earlier but it was mostly ignored. For the Church to have kept the lid on the abuse, the State (not just politicians but the civil service too) and the Media would have had to been involved. Along with non-religious people who worked on site or were involved in the operations of the Church activities.. all of whom stayed quiet, or actively sought to cover up what happened.

    There is so little interest in finding out who these people were and making them responsible for what they did. The focus is entirely on the Catholic Church. And the blame should be on the RCC, but, I do find it interesting how its almost as if these people never existed, even though, it would have been impossible for the Church to cover up for so long, without external help. After all, who helped to keep the victims quiet when angry fathers went to the Gardai? I can't imagine that no parent never went to RTE expecting our national broadcaster to get involved in raising awareness... but it's almost as if nobody ever did, at least, not until the whole sordid mess was revealed and they couldn't hide it any longer. Then, they piled on.

    To be honest I don't know how people darken the doors of churches - it must take exceptional blinkers with a heavy dose of brainwashing. It's an abomination of an organisation and thankfully the young people today have no religious baggage and will see it for what it is.

    I can. There is a difference between the actions of the priests, and the belief that people have in Jesus, God, the Saints, etc. They're not the same thing. The Vatican, and the political aspects of organised religion are not what the average Irish person thinks of when they go down on their knees, and prays.

    This is one of the big problems with this thread. You're equating the actions of people, with the whole theology of the religion. They're not the same.

    There have been abuse scandals before with a wide range of organisations and activities. The Boy scouts, for example. Teachers in secondary school committing rape. Does the actions of those teachers mean that all education is tarnished? Should all teachers be held accountable for what the rapists did? No, of course not.

    What the RCC did was wrong. They covered up their abuses... but it doesn't mean that every priest, nun, brother, etc should be held accountable for what others did. It shouldn't mean that their lives where they did extremely good things should be wiped out because someone else was evil. Nor should the religious belief in Christianity as a faith, be tarnished by the actions of some of it's followers.

    There's a lot wrong with both the RCC and the actual faith itself. I have my own issues with them, but I can appreciate that there's a lot of very good, sweet, innocent people within that faith, and they should not be judged so harshly over this, because they were not directly responsible.

    The Irish population, and society knew many of the excesses of the Catholic Church and helped to keep it silent. We knew the priest who had four children with his housekeeper, or the Marist brother who hospitalised the kid in his class.. and for decades, people did nothing. Nothing. In fact, in many cases, they supported it, helping to maintain the influence of the Church in local societies, squashing those who criticised or complained about the status quo.

    We, as a people, really need to start taking responsibility for our own ****. It's so easy to blame the RCC and all clergy for what happened, but where is the condemnation for how Irish society behaved? Lost in the background noise.



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    #314
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,508 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032122#Comment_119032122

    Interesting.

    Obviously you will be wanting the 1 billion muslims to do the same thing.



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    #315
    HazeDoll
    Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭HazeDoll


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119038005#Comment_119038005

    Of course. And anybody else who has allowed a set of superstitions to govern their life. In general, people (in particular vulnerable and uneducated people) would be better off without religion.

    Thing is, I have never had to try to live in a Muslim-dominated culture, to work in a Muslim school or be governed by Muslim-influenced laws. So I don't have the same problem with Islam as I do with Catholicism. If we changed from a half-arsed Catholic theocracy into of a half-arsed Islamic theocracy I would have much stronger feelings about Islam.

    I think things are improving though. To get back to the point of this thread, the trend is in the right direction. Recent stats on marriage ceremonies, the results of the abortion and marriage equality referenda, the fact that absolutely nobody I know from childhood has become a priest or a nun - these are all causes for optimism.



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    #316
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,508 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119038209#Comment_119038209

    Hate to burst your bubble princess but there will still be Catholics here in Ireland long after you and I are being eaten by the worms.



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    #317
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,006 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037824#Comment_119037824

    Give me a break. You talk as if this abuse happened 100 years ago. They still haven't opened their records and exposed the paedophiles. Getting information from Rome is like getting blood out of a stone. Do you think they have been all exposed? It takes huge bravery for survivors to decide decades later to take on an abuser. Where is the internal agitation within this rotten organisation?? The whistleblowers of 2022? Many priests and nuns know where the skeletons are. Why don't they do the right thing? Open the records and hand them over to the proper authorities.

    The outgoing bishop of Galway issued an apology last week over yet another paedophile priest just days before he retired.

    Bishop of Galway says sorry for the trauma caused by Fr Tom Brady's criminal and immoral behaviour - Galway Bay FM

    "A Canonical Inquiry will be initiated in due course"

    Do I think the church cooperates in every single way with these abuse investigations? Absolutely not.

    Bessborough closed in 1998. Have the nuns all forgotten where the 900 missing babies are buried? They refused to be interviewed every single time there is an investigation.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #318
    HazeDoll
    Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭HazeDoll


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119038331#Comment_119038331

    You're probably right. They'll be a minority though, a quaint relic of the past. There'll be no angelus on the telly, no crucifixes in state-funded institutions, no deference to men in gaudily embroidered vestments.

    In the last seven years the school I work in has gone from holding four big compulsory masses each year, plus a weirdly religious graduation ceremony, to holding small services to eight or nine students twice a year. Once attendance was optional the kids voted with their feet. The graduation ceremony is completely secular now. This was a result of student input too. Nobody on staff objected.

    It won't be in my lifetime but it'll happen. There will come a day when the last priest turns out the last light in the last church in Ireland.



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    #319
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's a good question. Collective amnesia.

    https://theconversation.com/mother-and-baby-homes-inquiry-now-reveal-the-secrets-of-irelands-psychiatric-hospitals-153608



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    #320
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,835 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037721#Comment_119037721

    You raised the question of 'the value of the Mass'? What is the value to an athiest, or a Muslim? Negative value, as it isolates them from them peers, makes them seem different or 'odd man out'.

    WTF would someone need a letter from their mammy to avoid something that is at best irrelevant or at worst offensive to them? There should be no mass on school time. There should be no school mass. If people from school want a mass, let them organise it as a separate event. Schools should be inclusive. School events should include everyone.



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    #321
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119036387#Comment_119036387

    Exactly. Which is why people benefit from the services of something like a charity broker. It is a business model that works for both parties. Once one side does not get carried away, greedy, or abusive. So it is not a business model I am against at all. But as I said.... we need to recognise it and not pretend it is something it is not.

    So when I see a defense of religion that is rooted in claiming the altruism and charity of that religion.... then it is a distinction I see worth making. One can identify the separate baby and the bath water and realise which is valuable and which is not.

    Altruism and charity does not require religion. Historically, and in some areas today, it is alas the main/only game in town doing it. But secular religion free charities and individuals exist out there doing just as much good work without any need for, or appeal to, religion.

    And often they do not use their charity work as a front for their real agenda, such as missionaries going to do charity work in poor countries where their real agenda is to spread their religion, or to preach the sinful use of condoms in areas torn by HIV.

    Feeding and clothing the poor and the vulnerable in order to preach to them ain't altruism.



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    #322
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    On the issue of priests and nun that didn't know, of course they cannot be held accountable for the crimes of others. But they can be held accountable for their continued support for the church. Every new scandal is held up as the final straw, the last time, historical etc. But then we learn of something else.

    Because fundamentally the church hasn't changed. They didn't protect those paedo priests because they liked the idea of it (although some clearly did) but they were protecting the business. And that is still the case. Why else have it own set of laws (papal laws I think) that they claim overrides local law? To protect itself. To protect its business. And its business is making money and gaining power.

    Why should we spare a thought for the good priests and nun when even the church itself doesn't. They should have come clean, if not for the victims, then at least for the servant of the church itself. But that would have put its business model in jeopardy.

    So while you can't lump all priests and nuns together with the evil ones, there is now more than enough evidence that the church is rotten to the core and continued support for it is tacit admission that you support that. Where are the protests from these priests and nuns for fundamental change? Where are the whistle-blowers?

    On the idea of charity, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of non religious charities. Religion is therefore not a requirement for charity. Being religious doesn't make people more, or indeed less charitable.

    In terms of community, one must remember that people are excluded from this community if they fail to believe. Its not long ago that the church had the to influence peoplrs careers. That children were excluded from their local school because they were the wrong religion. So community wasn't the priority money and power was, and is.



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    #323
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039023#Comment_119039023

    You get a letter to be excused sports. Often they have to sit that out with the class because there is no teacher to supervise them otherwise. Likewise if you get exclusion from Irish. But you'll still have to sit in class.

    By the time mass issue arises you're in first or second class. So you've had 8yrs or so to have come to an arrangement.

    Some schools have such limited resources because they are small that you'll have multiple ages of classes in one room with one teacher.

    Only someone moving here with kids at that ages whos never heard of Ireland will be surprised at any of this. Or religion issues. But at the same time they already have experience of how schools work in other countries. Unlike these threads where people only seen to realize this on enrollment or the year school starts.



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    #324
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039433#Comment_119039433

    That's it's a broken and morally bankrupt institution hierarchy isn't in doubt. The issue for the members is do they think there is value in the work they do it or should they walk away from those they feel they support. On these forums is no longer possible to discuss that. It's you either think all religion is bad or you're an abusive fanatic.

    Many religions promote the expansion of their religion as a primary aim. If you think the primary purpose of a religion is power and wealth is a different argument. Some take a vow of poverty and some are insular communities separate from everyone. It's not one size fits all. Though it is on these forums.



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    #325
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,160 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Biggest cult nowadays is the anti religious church bashing brigade. Most just bashing to be seen! Constantly referencing the past workings of the church.

    I’m catholic, but not really practicing. Plenty good people involved in Catholicism



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    #326
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,006 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039583#Comment_119039583

    Yeah after decades of unaccountable human rights abuses the 'bashers' are the problem. How simple for your own validation and integrity.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #327
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,160 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039602#Comment_119039602

    Can’t undo the past. But the ignorant bashing of people today for the wrongs of years ago is just fad and cult like.

    Instead of working with and harmonising and coming together to improve.



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    #328
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039372#Comment_119039372

    Spreading their own religion "their message" is central to many religions. It's not solely done by religions either.

    Pointing out religions are involved in charitable work is not defending religions. It's just an observation. Am I only allowed to mention the bad things religions do? Non religious charities do bad things too. Am I not allowed mention that either.



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    #329
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039577#Comment_119039577

    The primary purpose of the Catholic Church is power and wealth.



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    #330
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039602#Comment_119039602

    Ironically the only opinion that is valid here is all religion is bad and anyone who even discusses it is guilty by association. It cancels all discussion and makes every thread a one issue group monologue. Pointless even engaging in many forums because of this. It's not just this topic either. It's across all social media even media in general.



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    #331
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039657#Comment_119039657

    Not religion, the Catholic Church. That is the topic of the thread



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