Fall of the Catholic Church

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032914#Comment_119032914

Years of research... Eg pure in heart follow an abstinence only approach and that is proven not to work. LGBT issues not being discussed in the curriculum is basically failing to actually educate because of a particular religion being bigoted. Part of reducing homophobia etc is education btw.

Lost on how any of that is "anti traditional family values", not as if one chooses to be gay etc.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032968#Comment_119032968

Ahh,I'm thinking that your reading skills might have needed some development.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033007#Comment_119033007

How am I indoctrinating anyone? How did you get from unrequested influence to --- actually - go back to the beginning Specifically, what sentence did I write that you have issue with what's the issue?

When you say "but simple exposure to a religion, without it being actively encouraged or forced, is unreasonable?" are you asking me a question or what? What do you agree with? It sounds like you're accusing me of saying that exposure to religion is wrong (which I never said), agreeing with me, and complaining about it all at the same time? Again - what did I type that you ahve issue with and what's the specifci issue?

Regarding the last bit - ok....?

I'm honestly not sure where you disagree or agree with me and what your specific stance is?

I'm saying have religion, have education, sperate them. That doesn't mean that, if I haven't written something, I disagree with it.

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033101#Comment_119033101

Nothing wrong with my comprehension, thanks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033041#Comment_119033041

I completely disagree, Western culture is largely formed through Christianity

You basically just repeated what I said. Western culture was largely formed through Christianity.

Universalistic morality is a complete impossibility without a lens. 

Universalistic morality? Oh boy. That's pure fantasy... unless you want to live in N.Korea and even there with the layers of social/ideological conditioning, the individual still manages to form its own opinions and sense of what is right/wrong. People are not robots to be programmed with a particular sense of thinking.. it just doesn't work. China has been attempting to do it for centuries.. actual centuries of social programming, and they've mostly failed, due to the impact of the information age..

The only way to regulate such thoughts and to reinforce such programming to the extent needed is through lack of education (with a lack of questions), poverty (lack of options), and the only authority being held by the programmers. And even then, deviations occur, such as the splintering of ideologies into other faiths. How many Christian sects are there?

Oh, and western civilisation is nowhere near being enlightened. It's a mishmash of double standards, hypocrisies, and excuses.. with heaps upon heaps of propaganda.

The very reason you are "allowed" to have little time attached to it is itself a result of Christianity. You wouldn't get near the same leeway elsewhere.

Rubbish. Most philosophy we have on individualism comes from eras where people were questioning the place of the church in society, and showing up the corruption or inequalities within it. Wow.. you have a really bizarre perspective on where Western philosophy came from. You do realise that the Church sought to stifle such writings for centuries, including locking up philosophers, and even burning them as heretics?

Better the devil you know ;)

Oh, I know the RCC very very well.. I even like some aspects of it. However, it's time has past. Christianity as a faith. Yes.

But organised religion should be encouraged to disappear. It's done far more harm to humanity than all the good that has come with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033107#Comment_119033107

How am I indoctrinating anyone?

I have no idea where you got that from.

I'm saying have religion, have education, sperate them.

Then, let's just agree on that.. and forget the rest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033095#Comment_119033095

I think it's more the case of including Trans with all of that. For many people, Trans are an entirely different issue to LGB.

Most people have accepted the place of homosexuality in society (and the inclusion of it in terms of sex ed).. but Trans is still on very very shaky ground, with limited valuable long-term research available. Instead, there's a lot of feelings or biased research.. and for many people, they'd prefer that their children not be educated to accept such things until we know where it's going.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033062#Comment_119033062

We are back to what did the Romans did for us then are we? As I understand it, there are lots of reasons for copywriting something other than commercial reasons.

"The difference being" Doesn't seem different to many other large organisations.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033134#Comment_119033134

I got it from you saying - "You're not sure where I'm going with this, when you're the one introducing ideas like unrequested influence? Come on. You've led the discussion..." which I had no idea what you meant.

Beyond that, yes...

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033122#Comment_119033122

Keeping it simple. I was referring to Christianity as it stands today. Of course it was different at different times. As it stands today, it is a very tame and amenable source of unity in morality, everything being relative, other idealogies in comparison.

Universalism is impossible without bias. Even the most basic tenets of life, such as "do not kill" are not universal. It all depends, and anything that depends is not universal by definition. It's as simple as that.

You say that people largely aren't robots. I completely disagree, they are robots, sheep.

You give me enough influence in the west, with it's freedom, and I'll have educated, well-intentioned people walking all on fours within 20 years if I choose. And they'll congratulate each other on enlightenment, self-police and enforce it on others.

Education? Intelligence? Has nothing to with anything.

This is a planet where the nuttiest of the nuttiest has large following, and I'm talking recently. Those flat-earthers? Blast from the past, that one. Drinking bleach challenges.

People do what they're told and follow the trend, no matter what they may be. It's a necessity of society, and the instructions need only be delivered correctly. For that difference of opinion, I doubt there's much else to say.

Religion, by any other name, is never leaving us.

Christianity has formed all we are, and were it to go, some other religion of belief will take it's place. So again, I prefer the devil you know.

Easy to see the thread about Ukrainian immigration has been closed and those giving out about them need something else to vent about

Flinty997

This thread is not a beacon of tolerance from either side.

downtheroad

Fairly simply, if people want to practice religion that is fine, their choice. Bit can anyone give a rational reason as to why it should be included in the school curriculum, and why 95% of schools in the country should be under the ethos of the catholic church, when the numbers from census and CSO do not correlate to a popukation that is 95% catholic faith?

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033326#Comment_119033326

It might not be apparent, but if you remove Christianity from something, some other religion will take it's place. Doesn't have to be called a religion, but it'll be a system of someone elses belief being equally imposed/taught on children in schools.

Look at America and the blossoming belief war in it's schools. It's one or the other, a void is impossible.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033362#Comment_119033362

I'd rather we remove religion from the school curriculum and replace it with physical exercise or home economics. Something of actual use to children.

Catholics won't admit that they know the day religion is removed from schools is the day catholicism falls off a cliff in this country.

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033373#Comment_119033373

I just don't believe such a thing is impossible. It's like removing a heart and putting in another lung, it doesn't work that way with the body, or society.

Look at America and the blossoming belief war in it's schools. It's one or the other, a void is impossible.

As a separate point, do you think it would be easier to have cooperation and direction within a group 90% of the same creed, or a group composed of 15 different random ideas and beliefs? How do people group together? How have people always grouped together? Belief.

A unifying moral system will always be in place, a societal necessity, it's only a question of which one. People thinking some kind of Star Trek future lies ahead with logic and reasoning and everyone's a perfect idealogue, just remember there are sentient intelligent human beings drinking bleach for fun right now.

Flinty997

Isn't the point of this thread that its already fallen off a cliff.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033397#Comment_119033397

There are school systems that have no religion.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033397#Comment_119033397

What are you talking about? Very simple, religious education in schools should be a brief explanation of the various religions around the world. If you, or your parents, want you to practice a religion then go do it on your own time. It should absolutely not be taking up valuable school time, at the expense of other subjects and certainly not dividing a room in 2 between those partaking and those who aren't.

Some parents won't support this as they can't be bothered doing the confirmunion prep themselves on their own precious time. Look at the woman in the video posted above by AndrewJRenko, she fully admits she has no interest in the religion, she purely wants a day out for her kids. Why should other children have to sit through such nonsense in school to appease her desire for a party?

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033412#Comment_119033412

Oh theyre teaching beliefs, it just isn't obvious yet.

You cannot have a void of belief in society. It's one thing or the other.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033259#Comment_119033259

Keeping it simple. I was referring to Christianity as it stands today. Of course it was different at different times. As it stands today, it is a very tame and amenable source of unity in morality, everything being relative, other idealogies in comparison.

First off, throughout the last century, there has always been a difference between what the Church of Rome and the princes of Christ have proposed for the Church, along with it's attitudes towards social issues... vs what individual priests/brothers/nuns have expressed in the real world. There is a remarkable difference between what Christianity is like in Northern Spain, vs what it is like in Ireland. Hell, even between what Christianity is expressed in Dublin vs rural areas in West Galway. There is no such thing as a universal expression of the Catholic Church. It doesn't exist. That's even more the case with regards to Christianity, whether we're talking about the broad Christian sects such as Catholic/Protestant, or the more specific examples such as the Jehova Witnesses or Opus Dei.

Christianity has never and never will be "tame". It will simply be marketed in different ways.

Universalism is impossible without bias. Even the most basic tenets of life, such as "do not kill" are not universal. It all depends, and anything that depends is not universal by definition. It's as simple as that.

Except that Universalism is impossible. And since it's impossible, the bias is irrelevant.

You say that people largely aren't robots. I completely disagree, they are robots, sheep.

The mob is uncontrollable. It is not a collective consciousness, but a mass powered by emotion. A crowd can be influenced and led.. but within that population there will be individuals. Many individuals, all with their own biases, experiences, agendas, etc.. who may or may not connect with the aims of those expecting to lead, and just because some of those individuals comply, does not mean that they have lost their individual perspectives.

Look at all the extreme political ideologies of the world. Communism, Maoism, Fascism, National-Socialism, etc. All incredibly focused on the indoctrination and conditioning of populations, and spent as much time attempting to squash deviant behaviour within their own populations, and even the organisations themselves (corruption), that their efforts to expand beyond a certain point tended to implode. Where are they all now?

People aren't sheep. We're just lazy, selfish, greedy, opinionated...

Religion, by any other name, is never leaving us.

Well.. obviously.. it's been replaced with Science. With woke or PC nonsense. With activism. With.. whatever. Belief.. orchestrated belief, but still individual belief. It's similar to religion.. However, it's not the same as Religion. And that's why Religion needs to disappear.

Christianity has formed all we are, and were it to go, some other religion of belief will take it's place. So again, I prefer the devil you know.

So, Science has had no impact. Biology is/was unimportant. Political science has had no impact. Mathematics has had no impact. Sociology, Anthropology, the study of non-western civilisations has had no impact. War is irrelevant. Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, thriller, etc have had no impact?

Just Religion? You really believe that everything came from Religion? Cause that's lunacy. Not trying to insult you btw.. but while Religion has had an important part in the development of Western culture, it's definitely not everything. Hell, huge portions of the philosophy we have today comes from those against the influence of religion in society.

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033438#Comment_119033438

I'm speaking to something much bigger and complicated.

There's some philosophical cycle associated with such things.

We all do the same thing together for the sake of a unified society and feel-goods.

Then it gets a bit old, complacency sets in, "I can't be bothered, you do what you want".

Disruption and moral voidance, anything goes, people's heads are wrecked in the ensuing free for all. Society wanes.

Lastly the people seek out unity and understanding and belief again to escape demoralisation, to form another common society, and for that another religion is needed.

In other words, you not wanting to give a nephew a fiver for a communion is bringing about the apocalypse. Stop that!

:P

pancratic

Actually I remembered that theory. There's a good diagram of it that's fairly intuitive that links democracy and religion.

It's very easy to chart where we are!

Hence me saying that one should be very careful about what they wish for.

So when some posters are all "I can't be bothered with religion, let people do whatever" it fits snugly into the "selfishness/complacency" stage.

Or maybe it's inevitability that it all breaks. Still, some can see it as it happens.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033510#Comment_119033510

A fiver, good luck with that. At least 50 now.

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033547#Comment_119033547

Ah come on man, chip in for civilisation will ye!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033326#Comment_119033326

Okay. There's two different points there though.

School curriculum and the administration of schools.

It shouldn't be included with the mandatory subjects within the school curriculum. Religion should be an external subject, for those who want to avail of it, but separately from the main curriculum. I think that's the way things are going anyway... so it won't be long before that's the normal way of things... except for those shools which are still considered to be private, in which case, attendance is based on the awareness that religion will be taught.

Why are 95% of schools run by the Church? History, pretty much. They were there first, establishing the schools, and have a lot of experience in the operations of schools. Given time, that will change. It's already happening. The Marist Brothers (primary) in my hometown is run by the Marist Brothers but 90% of the staff, including the principal are not of the Marist Brothers or any religious organisation.

Basically, the RCC in Ireland is dying. They can't find enough people to replace the elderly who can no longer work the schools. Actual numbers of young people entering the RCC is tiny. However, some people are in an almighty rush to see them removed, and aren't willing to wait the one or two decades for it to happen naturally.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032883#Comment_119032883

There is no relationship between morality, ethics and traditional churches, often the opposite in fact. It's not difficult in the slightest to have morality and ethics with no religion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032891#Comment_119032891

Well, I'm amazed to have to explain why women in the RCC are second class citizens. But here goes: have you met many women priests, bishops, cardinals or popes? That's why women are second glass citizens, not permitted to be involved in running the church. Good enough to clean the church and put up the flowers and maybe even do a reading if the grumpy priest is in progressive mood, but not good enough to play a part in running the church - second class citizens.

You don't know why it is offence to be told that having sex, the most natural human reaction, is disordered. Just imagine being told that, for example, a group of men had decided that how you eat your dinner is disordered, or how you walk is disordered - a normal human activity by people like this bloke; https://nypost.com/2021/07/21/top-catholic-priest-resigns-after-phone-data-tracked-to-grindr/

When are they going to mind their fúcking business?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032896#Comment_119032896

'Mandatory prayers' is a bit of a contradiction, as not even the RCC gets 100% control over the deepest inner thoughts. 'Mandatory prayers' isn't the issue.

Having religion embedded in school life is the issue. The 'is there anything to be said for another Mass' as the default way of bringing students and staff together is the issue. Having religion embedded in the school day is the issue - prayers in class or registration, even if they 'non mandatory' is the issue. Religious statues and iconography around the school is the issue.

Take religion out of schools. If families want religion, let them do it on their own time and money. We'll see how enthusiastic they are then.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032929#Comment_119032929

I'm very familiar with 'modern school life' thanks. Wow, it's so good of the RCC schools to not force people to go to Mass or say prayers. The problem isn't forcing. The problem is having prayers, Mass and all the other aspects of religion as part of the normal school day that some people are expected to 'opt out', marking themselves out as different to their peers from four years old. The problem is having Mass as a normal way for the school community to come together, when some students and families are automatically excluded from this. The problem is having the nativity play as the key winter season end of term celebration of the school community, with no consideration of non-Christian students and families.

I'll give you the example of the trans boy, friend of the family, being repeatedly and systematically misgendered in a Church school, even in the school newsletter, despite being advised by the student and their family of their gender.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032914#Comment_119032914

Telling people about LGBTQ relationships is not 'pro LGBTQ'. It is recognising the factual reality of the world, that LGBTQ people exist. That's all.

Who decided that telling a significant chunk of the population that their deepest inner thoughts are twisted and wrong was better for anyone?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033475#Comment_119033475

Teaching about beiiefs maybe....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033599#Comment_119033599

Well, I'm amazed to have to explain why women in the RCC are second class citizens. But here goes: have you met many women priests, bishops, cardinals or popes? That's why women are second glass citizens, not permitted to be involved in running the church

ANd that's before you get to their stances on abortion and divorce...

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033599#Comment_119033599

"There's no relationship between morality, ethics and traditional churches. It's not difficult in the slightest to have morality and ethics without religion".

Right.

That's why you'll have random Christian's in the world believing it's okay to stone women, random atheists preaching Islam, random Muslims believing that women should go topless on the beach. That happens all the time, because morality isn't related to belief. *Borat voice* not!

Everyone thinks they're on the side of fact and sense, except for the people who don't.

For example, you state lgbtq as some kind of fact of reality, yet would you, in an alternate reality, be believing that as person in a Muslim society? Or if you were to compare your belief of facts to the rest of the world, you'd find yourself in one of the very, very few places on Earth thats behind lgbt and that's hardly universal here either.

Everyone thinks reality backs their personal beliefs, but not everyone can be right. Impossibility.

So no, the idea that morality is completely separable and independent from religion (or anything of widely held belief) is a daydream made to personally suit.