Fall of the Catholic Church

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041380#Comment_119041380

100%

There seem to be a list of techniques to shut down the debate.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041083#Comment_119041083

A lot of people who stick down Catholic on the census form would have views closer to Protestant beliefs.

Yet they stay in an organisation that they don’t share the same principles as.

I wonder why. 🤔

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041527#Comment_119041527

It’s not that difficult to understand. In spite of your assertion that claiming anyone is guilt free is wrong, the reality is that they have nothing to feel guilty for, everyone enjoys the right to the presumption of innocence in law in most jurisdictions, including Ireland.

Your rhetoric doesn’t change that reality, any more than the idea that because there were people involved in the Scouts who had a predilection to interfere with children and took advantage of the organisation of the Scouts to do so, means that anyone involved in Scouting Ireland, or Swimming Ireland, or any organisation you’d care to mention, be it AGS or the GAA, means that they too are guilty of any wrongdoing. In reality, they are not, and until you have credible evidence of any wrongdoing, your attempt to hold anyone to account for what you choose to accuse them of doing using a fallacious argument based upon guilt by association, is meaningless. Nobody has anything answer for, but they might address your question as a courtesy, if only to correct the fundamental mistake upon which your question is based.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041661#Comment_119041661

tell me something, did the leaders of scouting ireland and the GAA know that their were paedophiles in their midst and cover it up? and by leaders i dont mean local leaders, i mean the guys at the top. in the catholic church it was policy to cover up child abuse.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041566#Comment_119041566

The OP linked to the article saying the demise started with The Bishop Casey affair. Fraud, then goes on to list all the abuse etc. The Vatican, The beginning of the end of trust in mitred men. ..In Ireland this model of Church is a recent phenomenon, just 150 years out of the 1,590 that have passed since the arrival of St Patrick in 432AD..."

Who is debating any of that. If its a debate what are the sides of debate.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041784#Comment_119041784

Well, yes, they did, as did the other organisations mentioned in my previous post.

The point I’m making is that priests didn’t become paedophiles and child molesters; paedophiles and child molesters became priests, or Gardaí, or swimming coaches, or scout leaders, or teachers, etc, precisely because these positions of authority gave them almost unfettered access to children with little oversight because they were already in a position of trust.

Making it that much more difficult for paedophiles and child molesters is the objective of most people associated with any organisation involving children, and to suggest that anyone involved with an organisation supports child abuse because of their association with an organisation, amounts to guilt by association and nothing more.

It’s a childish argument that doesn’t deserve any legitimacy, it’s like a child telling another child they’re a chicken if they don’t do what that child wants, attempting to humiliate them into compliance.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041850#Comment_119041850

the issue with the catholic church is not that they had paedophiles in their ranks. the issue is with how they responded to it. and they responded to it by doing what was best for the church at the expense of the children that was abused. they are a morally bankrupt organisation and no rightminded person would have anything to do with them.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041661#Comment_119041661

Where have I said that they are guilty of wrongdoing? I haven't. I have made it clear that the fault lies in staying with an institution that has been proven, on countless occasions, not only be guilty of criminal behaviour but of actively covering up and attempting to silence those that sought to seek justice.

They know this yet continue to claim they are part of the institution. That is their choice. If they all left the catholic church then the church would lose all its power and a new, better, church could be set up. Once that was more interested in morals and compassion rather than money and power.

But they choose not to. I don't know why. But it doesn't matter. It is their choice. Their choice to attend church. To provide funds (which they know part of which goes to defending the church against its victims), to continue to offer support and reverence to the Bishops and priests.

Their choice. Trying to pain it as some type of dump all the sins of other onto everyone is only trying to divert the real discussion. Why are people still involved in this institution knowing what they know. How can they sit in a church and listen to a papal letter being read out knowing that the institution has done to countless children in our country? They wouldn't accept it from any other sector, but happy to cede their moral compass because of their religion.

Imagine you are a vicim of catholic child abuse, and now in your adult life you are forced to have to see the priests given a podium on talk shows to talk about the evils of drugs, the loss of morals due to falling religion etc. It must be soul destroying. Seeing the pope get fetted as some sort of special being, when he runs the very institution that destroyed your life, and probably the lives of all around you.

As I have repeatedly said, the catholic church believes that we are all sinners due to the actions of a couple, thouands of years ago. Yet you want to argue that people staying aligned to such an institution are being unfairly judged!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119039467#Comment_119039467

Well if schools don't have the staff to yeach religion then they don't teach religion, end of problem. I'd extend that to Irish as well, but first they need to drop Irish as an exam subject and that's a while new story. In any case, I've already pointed out the solution to this: move it to extra curricular status (religion, not Irish).

I'm very skeptical about PE exemptions. Do these kids never exercise?

But lack of teachers kinda shows you how much respect there is for the kids on a State level, but that's a different discussion.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041893#Comment_119041893

There’s no distinction between claiming anyone is not guilt free, and claiming they are guilty of wrongdoing. Both positions imply anyone has anything to feel guilty about. In reality, they don’t, unless they have actually committed any wrongdoing.

You don’t have to imagine there are millions of people who remain members of the Catholic Church who were the victims of sexual abuse by the clergy and others involved with the Church. By your logic they are complicit in their own sexual abuse. I don’t think that’s the argument you intend to make though. The reason they remain within the Catholic Church is because they’re Catholic. It doesn’t mean they wish to be associated with anyone who committed sexual abuse of children.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042006#Comment_119042006

In terms of PE the reason I've seen is for a physical impairment. Something requiring surgery etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042297#Comment_119042297

Sounds temporary, but again - different discussion.

The point stands - let the religions administer religious education outside of school time. Or even in school time - let the teacher teach the kids who are exempt and the church team kids who don't.

But this idea that the school should be making provision for religious instruction at the expense of education is ridiculous.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041857#Comment_119041857

You can certainly choose to look at it that way if you like, but I look at it differently - the issue with any organisation is child molesters and paedophiles among their ranks. That’s even before it gets to the point where there is an entirely different issue to deal with.

no rightminded person would have anything to do with them

Only the most feeble-minded idiot would support your position.

I know you see what I did there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042314#Comment_119042314

Also goes back to, why not make it an out of school thing? Surely if parents want their kids to be raised Catholic, that shouldn't be an issue. Sunday school or whatever to cover religious education.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042314#Comment_119042314

I'm not sure anything less than a yearly assault course test is going to satisfy you on that one. It's was really about Parental permission is not unusual for exclusion (or inclusion) from things. It not be a letter as there digital systems in some schools that you just tick a check box from your phone.

As for not productive school time. I agree but I got shot down previously for pointing out where such separation was implemented successful elsewhere.

The article linked in the OP did refer to religion in schools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042448#Comment_119042448

We're not taking about PE.

Hotblack Desiato

Schools should not be segregating kids during the school day on the basis of religion. This is a major reason the Community National Schools' original RE programme failed and was abandoned.

Flinty997

...

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042157#Comment_119042157

There certainly is. You are trying to claim that I am equating all members of the catholic church with those that committed the crimes. I'm not. There are different levels of guilt. The criminals are to blame for what they did, the church is to blame for the cover up and attacking the victims.

Quite separate to that are the remaining members of the church. They bear no responsibility for the actions of the criminals, but do for their own actions.

The point you made about the abuse victims staying is a really good one. Rather than blame them, I think it shows the power of the church and the indoctrination that occurs. Despite all that has happened they continue to call themselves catholic. That in of itself is really worrying as to the power that we are inflicting upon our kids when we enter them into the church.

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041265#Comment_119041265

Yes, it’s funny how people’s allegiances tend to back and forth and go sideways and around throughout history.

Just think how many Russian churches were destroyed during the Stalinist era, and how the Orthodox Church was rehabilitated and used as a legitimator of Putin’s power after the fall of the Soviet Union. The same fella Putin stated that said fall of the USSR had been the single most catastrophic event of the 20th C. You can’t spin these things fast enough.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119043361#Comment_119043361

There are different levels of guilt.

No there aren’t different levels of guilt, at least none that exist outside of the guilt you created by way of association, that you’re trying to ascribe to innocent people on the basis that they are members of the Catholic Church.

When you said the point I made about the victims staying was a good one, I didn’t think that’s what you had in mind 😂 No, the reason I made the point is to demonstrate how your attempt at guilt by association has your argument fall in on itself. Even still you were able to construct a narrative of some collective responsibility and guilt for the behaviour of a small minority of the clergy and those people who used the organisation to cover up child abuse.

You completely overlooked the point I made that Catholics who did not commit child abuse have nothing to feel guilty about, and do not associate themselves with anyone who commits abuse against children.

In terms you might better understand - the only person making any association between child molesters and Catholics is, well, you. I don’t make that association, and have never made that association, so I don’t worry about my child or anyone else’s children for that matter who are members of the Catholic Church, any more than I worry about the idea of children being abused by men by virtue of the fact that they are men, in spite of the fact that there are people who attempt to make the same claims about men solely by virtue of the fact they are men.

I don’t mind that they are entitled to hold whatever irrational beliefs they wish, but if they were to attempt to convince anyone that their judgement should be compelling enough to find anyone guilty of wrongdoing, THEN I could see there being an issue alright.

Leroy42

I will try to explain it again, as clearly I am explaining myself wrong.

I never claimed guilty by association. You are claiming I did, but I haven't. I am not blaming catholics for the abuse within the catholic church.

What I have said, repeatedly, is that catholics that stay within the church do so knowing the evils that the institution not only carried out, but covered up and when the truth tried to come out put as many obstacles in peoples way as possible. All to protect itself.

To stay is is their choice. Do you not agree?

Do you think there are any catholics that are not aware of the abuses carried out by the church? Yet they continue to stay in the organisation and in many cases actively support it.

They do so in the full knowledge of the type of organisation that it is. They make that choice. They weigh up the cost benefit to themselves and have, I assume, arrived at the conclusion that despite the evils undertaken by the church they would prefer to stay a member.

I happen to think that at best that is a deeply selfish decision, and more likely it is a decision that they simply don't care enough about others to even try another religion. So wedded are they to the institution , so indoctrinated, they even with all the evidence in their face, they cannot bring themselves to step out of line. But, again, that is their choice. And that is what I hold them guilty for.

Nothing to do with the abuse. But they bear a responsibility for continuing to support such an organisation.

While the threat level might now be the same in the church as outside (it certainly wasn't the case in the past) the key difference is that if you find a kid getting abused by a man, the state will look to stop him and punish him. If a priest does it, you will be faced with the full effects of a massive corporation looking to protect itself and use every means to do so, including attacking the child. That is the course they always follow.

You seem happy to forgive and forget, accept that the church has changed and there is nothing wrong with the church anymore. Yet I doubt you would accept such a position from any other organisation.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040993#Comment_119040993

I have to PROVE that a mass has no value to an athiest? For real?

Do I have to prove that a bicycle has no value to a fish? Woudja get off the stage with your obfuscation and nonsense.

A mass has no value to an athiest, it is a waste of valuable educational time. Holding a mass in a public school is intentionally excluding some students and their families from a school event.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040779#Comment_119040779

SO that's zero education for all then - a waste of valuable educational time, because some people want to impose their personal beliefs and values on others.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044026#Comment_119044026

Well that’s why I support diversity in the education system Andrew, so that children are provided with an education in accordance with their parents or guardians values, beliefs, philosophy or world views.

That way nobody is forced to enrol their children in schools who’s educational philosophy they do not support and see no value in terms of their children’s education.

That way, everyone’s happy… well, except those people who wish to impose their personal values and beliefs on others.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040739#Comment_119040739

When or where do atheists attend Catholic Mass??? Or other non-Catholic denominations' attend Mass?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044003#Comment_119044003

You seem happy to forgive and forget, accept that the church has changed and there is nothing wrong with the church anymore. Yet I doubt you would accept such a position from any other organisation.

The only difference between us is that I’m not willing as you are to hold innocent people responsible for the wrongdoings of others. That’s all.

As for whether or not I would accept such a position from any other organisation, I wouldn’t hold the organisation responsible for the wrongdoing of it’s members in the first place. It’s why I have no issues whatsoever with the many organisations I’m involved in, because I don’t hold innocent people responsible for the wrongdoings of others.

I’m not going to deprive my child of an education, or taking part in sports, or being a member of Scouting Ireland or anything else, on the basis of the idea that you would judge me as guilty for not behaving in accordance with your wishes, or, falling into line in accordance with your standards.

They’re your issues to resolve, they’re not an issue for me or anyone else who hasn’t done anything wrong.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044003#Comment_119044003

"...happy to forgive and forget..." I'm not so sure about that. Most people would have a tendency to just move on and base their faith on their own lived experiences. While very many people were abused, the majority were not.

Forgiving and forgetting can be dangerous though. I wonder will swim Ireland have to rebrand again after last week. It just illustrates that these problems aren't over nor are they the preserve of the RCC.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041527#Comment_119041527

You could apply that same argument to the purchase of services couldn't you? Are those that buy fast fashion guilty of exploiting child labour? Are those that buy narcotics responsible for the murder and mayhem that the drug gangs cause?

Should these people be held to account for their support of these "institutions"? If that's the case well there's blood on the nose of a fair few boards posters...

Or we can say we are not accountable for the actions of others.

Hotblack Desiato

As for whether or not I would accept such a position from any other organisation, I wouldn’t hold the organisation responsible for the wrongdoing of it’s members in the first place. 

Even when the people at the top of that organisation conspired on a global scale to cover up that vile wrongdoing? Who or what is responsible for that? Is it just one of those things, nothing to see here really?

Not only are those same structures and attitudes which facilitated and perpetrated this coverup still in place today, in many cases the people who did the covering up are still in office today.

Irish bishops and cardinals conspired in this. Not one of them has been held accountable.

The endless deflect, deflect, deflect is sickening. People are appalled at the abuse. But what the defenders of the RCC either can't, or won't, admit is that what has people angry (as opposed to disgusted) is the cover-up which goes right to the top, and for many people has destroyed any trust they had in that organisation and justifiably so.

What posters like Leroy42 are questioning is how some people can still have such trust in an organisation which not only has not changed, it has no appearance of having either the capability or desire to change. Fool me once, etc.