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New referendum on dispora voting due

1356

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm aware. And I was well over the 18 months. And on longer stints abroad I've never been removed from the register.

    This is a wholesale feature of the management of the electoral register. The state are fully aware that many thousands of long term non residents vote, again, technically in violation of the act, but don't stir the hornets nest.

    Indeed the #hometovote thing for the 8th was widely trumpeted in the media.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    That happens too. If you were restrained from voting twice, you wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. But if I was restrained from voting on the basis I live abroad, things would get very interesting from a constitutional point of view.

    Legal scholars have it that the administrative barriers to overseas Irish on the register voting are just waiting to fall. All it will take is the individual with the right locus standi, and the government will be compelled to act.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    IF that happens, our tax laws should fall in line with the USA's where every citizen, home and abroad, pays some taxes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There is no legal or constitutional link between tax and suffrage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,593 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    all of them, no. are you telling me that every third or fourth generation irish passport holder has as much as been to ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,727 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Where are they getting the passport? Isn’t that enough?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,593 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    by being included on the foreign birth register. and, no, it is not enough to get some say in how the country is run in my opinion. there are nearly as many irish citizens outside the state than in it. and you think they shall all get a say?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,727 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,593 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    because they don't live here. it doesn't affect them. how many times are you going to ask the same question?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 925 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    They don’t live here therefore they have no right to vote on things for which they will not be present to live with the consequences. It’s an absolute no, whatever way you try to spin it.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    If it's just about living there then open up every election to every single immigrant resident in the country. They're paying their taxes without representation after all.


    Which is actually the main political problem for Irish abroad, you can't vote at home and you can't vote locally either



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,830 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    But this is a referendum about the presidency elections. The man who represents them abroad. So in this case they are effected and they do live with the consequence, in exactly the same way it effects an irish citizen living in Ireland.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because hopefully they will return home some day,and referendums give broader outline to direction country is headed,so its entirely fair anyone irish be entitled to vote upon em



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,256 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    There is also no legal or constitutional link between being resident abroad and being able to vote in Ireland!

    But tax and suffrage is a pretty good justification, alternatively we could look and residency and suffrage perhaps? Both much better links than holding a passport



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 925 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    And that’s fine, it’s only a figurehead election so couldn’t care less who votes for that. Other issues though that directly affect those living here? Nope



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,256 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The majority of that diaspora will not return home some day, ever. So you would give voting rights to a huge amount of people who would never set foot in this country again? The "direction this country is headed" should be dictated by people who will never live here? Why?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,727 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    It does affect them though. Didn’t it affect me that GWB was my president when I lived in Ireland? Because it did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,101 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    This, they’d be aware of WHO is in power but they wouldn’t have an opportunity to experience…see and feel what type of job they are doing. There would be a total disconnect…that you won’t bridge by them reading a few articles online and talking to cousin Billy on Facebook once a fortnight… Therefore I don’t believe expats, diaspora should be voting in Irish elections…

    I’ve cousins, aunts and an uncle in the US as well as England… the US gang with one exception who comes home for work and has worked for governments here, they wouldn’t have a notion about our day to day politics aside from anecdotally… why should a person be given the right to make or contribute to a decision that will impact 5 million people here when it will have no impact on them….?

    a load of misty eyed expats sitting in O’Briens pub in Boston, having spent 14 days out of a grand total of the last 1576 days here…thinking they’ll vote for x because of a perception of ABC….back ‘home’….

    no…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,593 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,830 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Id agree with that. As an Irishman living abroad Id agree that i shouldn't be allowed vote in regional or government elections in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,727 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I’m not sure this is a sincere question? Think about it for 30 seconds?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,185 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Ah suddenly they're victims. Such hyperbole....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,185 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    People keep saying the word seconded. I know many people who took opportunities abroad within their companies. None of them were forced. The term seconded is a bit....



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But if we give them a say,it would possibly benefit more and encourage more to return?


    Im not seeing the harm really



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You used the word victim, not I.

    You'd be surprised at some of the sentiment of Irish who have done well abroad having their social capital tapped by Irish government agencies etc. and have their good-will exploited.

    For instance, an acquiaintance of mine (not close to him, just knew him tangentally) was tapped by the IDA to get a meeting with a blue-chip CEO of a household name company for a Paddy's Day photo op.

    No-name minister of state was late for the meeting, suspected he was hungover, rambled incoherently without understanding what the company did and made a ham fisted and embarrassing request for jobs.

    Photo in front of the company's sign all smiles and then dissapears like a puff of smoke.

    Aquaintances attitude? "Never again". Same guy left Ireland in the late 80s without a pot to piss in and left behind a country who's political elites didn't care for his class of people or his potential - and he's not afraid to say so.

    People could stand to listen a bit more to the overseas Irish. You might say "f*ck 'em, they left", but a hell of a lot of them have done good turns for the state for little reward, and sometimes to their embarrassment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Then why prattle on about tax and link it to voting in your posts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The longer someone has been out of the country, the more out of touch they are with the reality on the ground, and the less likely they are to vote in the interests of those of us who do live here. The Ireland they know is mostly one with rose-tinted glasses, quite removed from the Ireland that exists now. How many people who emigrated in the 1980s would have voted against abortion or divorce, or gay marriage for example. They may have thought, "These aren't the values of the Ireland I know".

    I don't see the logic in allowing emigrants to vote tbh. Elections decide policy within the borders of the country. If that's not going to effect you, then shouldn't be entitled to a vote. I can see why a five-year buffer should be permitted. Someone who's gone less than five years is more likely to return - and be affected by the result of their vote - than someone who's been gone longer.

    I'd rather see elections opened more broadly to non-citizens who've been here a certain amount of time. Why can't people who've been here for a decade vote in a General election? The outcome of those votes affects them and their family as much as any of us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    I gave my opinion. On a discussion board. Imagine that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    All opinions are not equal. You were attempting to draw a legal link between taxation and suffrage. None exists in our constitutional and democratic order.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Now you are just talking bollix, not once did I say that there was any link, never mind legal, between them. I gave my opinion, using another country as an example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    I'm generally in favour of some of the diaspora having a vote in the Presidential election.

    It shouldn't be open to all passport holders, it should be open to those who have been resident in Ireland at most 15 years ago. Someone who has inherited an Irish passport because their Granny came to the states should not have a say in our elections at all if they haven't lived here.

    If it were to be extended to general elections I think there should be a diaspora constituency with a max of 3 seats. Again same limitations of Irish Citizens who have lived on the Island not less than 15 years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Ease up on the language.

    Your were indeed drawing a link between suffrage and taxation. You're welcome to try to scuttle away from it but it's there for posterity.

    How much tax do you pay? Fancy half a vote at the next election because of the size of your pay packet?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,727 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    ‘I employ 50 people, they only pay tax because I give it to them. Can I have 51 votes”



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭Nermal


    I don't think the penny has dropped, either in society or in government, that as we are now net contributors to the EU, we have the option of simply not listening to them whenever it suits us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,185 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    That's gas tbh. Because I also know a few who done well abroad and are more than happy to sit on boards including Failte Ireland.

    Don't pretend it's a chore that's nonsense. Getting 'tapped' up by the IDA isn't as you portray it. Mutual two way jersey wearing is the reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,913 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Its funny how its ignored that for decades elections were massively skewed by so many young, idealistic, rebellous, disenfranchised people emmigrating - but allowing those people now to keep the vote for a period of time would somehow be skewing (the already skewed through missing young people) elections.

    Theres a lack of logic in there somewhere!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,256 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    All opinions are not equal.

    Agreed - some here opine that non-residents deserve equal say as residents in matters pertaining exclusively to the Irish state!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    You'll easily be able to quote where I "attempted to draw a legal link between voting and tax" then, except you can't because you are talking nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    It's funny how it's ignored that those people are now, currently, allowed to keep the vote for a period of time.

    There's a lack of logic in your post.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,913 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    voting when you are still a resident of Ireland but abroad for months is not exactly allowing people who have moved abroad to keep the vote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,195 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I'm probably going to regret even contributing to this thread, and this might even be my only post. It's mostly spurred by the notion that an ex-pat like myself who is living in aboard, earning a living in a separate tax system, is somehow not connected to Ireland and is not contributing

    I left Ireland during the Rescission to find work with a decent living wage. It had become near impossible to do that in Ireland in my field and so I had a choice between the Dole or getting work abroad, which I did.

    During that time, my parents fell into extremely difficult times, resulting in my sending a large portion of my earnings back to Ireland to keep their mortgage going and to ensure that they had enough to eat. Things got better thankfully, but there was a long slog where much of my already heavily taxed income was destined to leave my pocket to satisfy payments to an Irish bank.

    In later years, when I was down to one parent I had to start doing it again to top-up my father's small state pension, so he could pay the bills.

    I have established a family where I live, so the move is permanent. Many holidays are to Ireland as opposed to warmer destinations, where of course we spend cash. I am however still an Irish citizen and it may still be while yet before I get local citizenship and be able to vote in national elections, I still follow the situation in Ireland and how it might impact the family I still have there.

    The fact that I have left Ireland does not mean that Ireland has left me, if anything my separation has made it matter more. The notion that I do not pay Irish income tax on my wage slip does not mean that I don't contribute to Ireland. If we were using money-given as metric surely I contribute more to the Irish Nation that some members of Irish society who would gladly never work a day while they sit in their "Forever Homes" and yet still have the right to vote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    A welcome post and perspective.

    It's people like you who left during the backbreaking recession I'm mostly thinking about when I speak of votes for overseas Irish.

    There are legion stories like yours.

    I recall a relative of mine who did similar in the 80s, moved to the US during that recession and supported his disabled mother and paid for refurbishing her home from working on building sites.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭tjhook


    If a child of mine grows up and leaves the nest, I won't continue to give them a say in what brand of cornflakes we buy in the house. For the same reason, I wouldn't be in favour of granting a say in the running of the country to people who don't live in it.

    Because they themselves won't have to live with the results of their choices - but others will have to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,711 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    That isn't what is actually being proposed if you look at the actual details of it.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,711 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    OK, so you also don't want anyone who lives in the country and doesn't pay income tax to have a vote either?

    Were you born an Earl in 1820?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,711 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Yeap, the best and brightest stayed.... or maybe, not given the tone of some of the posts about this topic. Those that stayed are the dinosaurs here.

    Be on the right side of history lads!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,711 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Good points.

    I don't think anyone is proposing to give a vote to the tens of millions of the Irish Diaspora, so people can put those pitchforks away.

    This proposal is for Irish born people who are now residents abroad. There will also be a time-limit of such like most other countries on how long you retain that right to vote from abroad.

    The counter to this is the Dinosaur view. Those that will be on the wrong side of history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,740 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It's 6 months which I believe is very low compared to other countries. I'de like to see it increased to a few years for referendums and at least 10 years for Presidential elections. TDs are supposed to represent the people in the constituency so I wouldn't change that.

    And no way should we ever allow people who never lived here to vote.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,711 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    suffer the consequences of that

    This is an amazing mindset in fairness that must be unique to Irish people. Using the term, 'Suffer the consequences' shows how deeply conservative and negative many in this country are as if going to the polling booth and casting a vote, is somehow going to be met with some penance or service after the fact.

    "Only us Irish people can suffer the consequences, not you lads over there!"

    It's an amazing insight into the mindset which actually explains a lot about this country and how it is run. The thing is, most people don't realise it.



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