New referendum on dispora voting due

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897177#Comment_118897177

Shouldn’t the fact it hasn’t happened yet suggest it isn’t really an issue for any political party here? The only way it might change is if a referendum result shows it’s the will of the people.

The elephant in the room is how Irish citizens in Northern Ireland are treated of course. Perhaps if Sinn Fein get into power here, they may be more willing to bet that constituency would be more likely to vote along their lines.

a_squirrelman

Screw the voting from abroad thing.

I'd be more interested in the EU 27 agreeing that if you are an EU citizen you can vote in the country you're registered in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897410#Comment_118897410

Ireland really need to bring in mandatory registration of domiciled people

a_squirrelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897451#Comment_118897451

Yeah but people are mad weird, I can't understand why id cards are such an issue.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895116#Comment_118895116

Unless those people are in Brussels, of course 😂

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897410#Comment_118897410

The circumstance a poster who is living in Spain mentioned earlier is exactly the political no man's land that both the Irish overseas voting barrier and the rules that certain EU countries have on voting is the one worth paying attention to.

That individual, in the excercising of his rights of freedom of movement and labour in the EU is cut out of the democratic process in both his homeland and the state he lives in now (save if he elected to become a Spanish citizen, which there is no guarantee he'd be granted, and he has no particular constitutionally enumerated right to unlike voting).

This is the exact circumstance in which an Irish citizen will establish locus standi for a case to go all the way to the highest European courts. And the circumstance on the legality of the administrative voting bar for overseas Irish will come into focus, and likely fall.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898012#Comment_118898012

I would totally agree that if you move to a different part of the EU and establish residence there - Paying taxes , in receipt of Government Social services or whatever , you should absolutely be able to vote in the appropriate level of elections.

Today I think in Ireland an EU citizen can vote in EU election (of course) and local county council elections , but not for the Dail , which makes no sense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886539#Comment_118886539

I agree - as long as there's an opt-out option. No way I'm I paying tax to Ireland simply because I was born there, but similarly, I have no interest in the whimsical popularity contests.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897177#Comment_118897177

Actually there is a need for one as Article 12 asserts that only the right to vote in the general allows one to vote in the presidential. They would need to be decoupled.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899104#Comment_118899104

More generally, a minor legislative change re: electoral roll and a statutory instrument allowing for the administration of postal votes for overseas Irish in a general election is all that's required.

Why waste our time with a referendum? When a sensible amendment to an act is all that's required allowing a modest 5 years (or whatever) where overseas Irish can maintain their suffrage rights.

(In reality they still maintain them as I've demonstrated in this thread, they are just frustrated administratively)

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899318#Comment_118899318

The Constitution links voting rights of both of them, no big deal as it stands currently but if they plan to change it, it is far better to address that first before producing an unconstitutional piece of legislation.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899333#Comment_118899333

Incorrect: The constitution is explicit on this point -

"Every citizen without distinction of sex who has reached the age of eighteen years who is not disqualified by law and complies with the provisions of the law relating to the election of members of Dáil Éireann, shall have the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann."

The right to vote for President follows and flows from this article.

You don't need to be a constitutional scholar, all that is required is a legislative amendment (to electoral roll acts) and statutory instrument (allowing for for the administrative aspect). No referendum required.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899373#Comment_118899373

It's expressly stated in Article 12.2.2, which is an article about the president. If you live abroad you can't vote in a Dail election and clearly not in the presidential either. This is where they would need to separate them.

2° Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at an election for President.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899393#Comment_118899393

You're rather making my point here for me.

Article 12.2.1 sets out who can vote in General elections (those who comply with the provisions of laws relating to the election of members to DE).

Article 12.2.2 sets out that those who comply with the provisions of laws relating to the election of members to DE may also vote for President.

It's crystal clear, no referendum required, no constitutional change required. Simply a minor legislative change and a statutory instrument.

EDIT for your own EDIT: And just for clarity, there is nothing in the constitution making a distinction between overseas Irish and those residing in Ireland when it comes to voting rights.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899439#Comment_118899439

That's really not what it says at all. Practically, you can't do the first without being on the register, i.e. living here and then you clearly can't do the second. That a referendum has been mooted suggests that brighter minds than you disagree.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899484#Comment_118899484

Practically, you can't do the first without being on the register, i.e. living here

That is his point, there is nothing in the constitution that separates the two. A legislative change can easily accommodate Irish born people who are living abroad to remain on the electoral register.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899484#Comment_118899484

You didn't have to stoop to the "brighter minds" comment, because my point is dead right and yours is regrettablly for you, 100 percent wrong. This is one of those constitutional reads that is obvious even to the first year law student.

There is nothing at all restraining the government from amending the act and imposing a statutory instrument. That is perfectly constitutional.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899497#Comment_118899497

Except you really do have to separate them as Article 12 makes the latter a condition of the first. Legislation needs to be consistent with the Constitution.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899534#Comment_118899534

OK, it's clear you are over your head and want to try and pass this experience off as a face-saving exercise.

To repeat, there is nothing in the constitution stopping the government from legislatively stopping people, Irish people, from voting from abroad.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899534#Comment_118899534

You've gotten this so wrong here.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899519#Comment_118899519

I'm pointing out where the proposed referendum may be required. I don't agree with your opinion on this, even with the supercilious lecture and IMO the government and the AG will not deal in such casual use of election laws. In my view they will be far more likely make and adjustment to the Constitution.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899608#Comment_118899608

Your view is wrong. The legislative proposal I floated is 100 percent congruent with the constitution.

And come down off your high horse about superciliousness, if you're going to go down the road of "brighter minds", do yourself the good turn of being able to read and interpret the constitution in even the most basic sense correctly.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899559#Comment_118899559

Based on a random internet opinion? They've said they'll hold a referendum. I'm fairly indifferent to whether they do or not.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899624#Comment_118899624

My view is different to yours. We disagree. If it's 100% congruent then float it to government and test it. Otherwise you're just waffling into the ether like all the rest of us.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899624#Comment_118899624

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899553#Comment_118899553

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2019/68/?tab=bill-text

The Thirty-ninth Amendment of the Constitution (Presidential Elections) Bill 2019 bill, which lapsed with the end of the last Dail, but was restored to the Dáil Order Paper in July 2020 to be addressed at some point during this current Dail.

It proposed the following changes to Article 12

in Article 12.3.2º, the qualification for voting in Presidential elections would change

to "All citizens without distinction of sex who have reached the age of eighteen years who are not disqualified by law and comply with the provisions of the law relating to elections for the office of President"

from "Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann"

in Article 12.3.3º, the window for organising Presidential elections to would be increased from 60 to 90 days, to allow for the longer time to process ballots from abroad.

a transitory Article 12A would be inserted to delay the effect of the Article 12.3 changes until 1 January 2025. This gives enough time to amend the Electoral Act 1992 to "regulate the detail and practical implementation of an extended franchise". Michael D Higgins seven-year term expires on 10 November 2025, after the Article 12A cutoff date expires. Conversely, the new non-resident franchise would not apply to an early election for a vacancy caused by the President's death, resignation or removal from office.

Great idea. The more expats allowed vote, the better chance to defeat SF.

martingriff

Correct me if I am wrong the constitution as it stands states you can only vote in the presidential election if you are allowed to vote in a general election. So if the question was should overseas people can vote in both the a referendum would not be needed BUT if it is only for a president election then a referendum would be needed

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903948#Comment_118903948

Letting expats vote would help SF, i.e. the sympathisers in the Irish-American community.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904987#Comment_118904987

The referendum is bound to be regarded by many domestic voters as being symptomatic of an out-of-touch political establishment, i.e. what about the prices of food and fuel, the health service etc?! Besides, I can't see many Irish people abroad thinking that they'll get anything out of being able to vote for a candidate for an office that does not have much power.

Margaret Clarke

I would vote no if I lived in Ireland.

If you don’t live there, you shouldn’t be voting there.

Should we all have voting rights in Mongolia?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908658#Comment_118908658

Are we all Mongolian ?

Stupid comparison.

Margaret Clarke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908820#Comment_118908820

Attack the post, not the poster. Easy tiger.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908820#Comment_118908820

She has a point - a lot of Irish passport holders have never set foot in Ireland. Should they be allowed vote for a president that doesn't represent them?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908824#Comment_118908824

I called the comparison stupid not you. The absolute definition of "attack the post, not the poster"

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908845#Comment_118908845

No I dont think they should. Im only for overseas Irish with a time limit.

Margaret Clarke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908845#Comment_118908845

Thanks 😊 There are probably more people who are Irish citizens (or entitled to Irish citizenship) scattered around the world than there are Irish citizens living in Ireland.

Voting rights should only be for Irish citizens or CTA citizens RESIDING in Ireland.

Obviously EU citizens should be allowed to vote in European elections.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908845#Comment_118908845

Of course the President represents them, if you’re an Irish citizen living in London, Munich, Zurich or where ever and the President visits of course you feel he is representing you and just as important those around you see him as representing you and will ask you about the visit, what he said etc.

The President is an apolitical position, with little impact on the daily life of the state and it represents the best compromise.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908882#Comment_118908882

We are - I live in Berlin and vote in German elections. That said, Germany is federal and the eligibility laws differ slightly from region to region.

I know Americans here can still vote in US elections as well, but they also have to pay taxes to the US (an incredibly awkward process, I'm told).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909090#Comment_118909090

Bit of a geenralisation...? I'm Irish and never felt that he was representing me. And a lot of people who hold Irish passports do so out of ease of travel and fewer restrictions when traveling (especially since Brexit) and not for any reasons of identity or allegiance.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909090#Comment_118909090

An office that has not much power has no effect on the lives of Irish citizens living outside the Republic - and it doesn't have much effect on the lives of those citizens living in the Republic either! It certainly wouldn't bring them any closer to being able to move back to Ireland, that's for sure!

political analyst

The repeal of the 8th meant that the Citizen's Assembly format served its purpose four years ago - so what was the point of having an assembly about the idea of letting Irish emigrants vote in presidential elections and about other issues?!

Margaret Clarke

I’m staunchly against letting expats and diaspora vote. The only way I could come around to it is if we abolished the right to hold dual / multiple citizenships, as several countries do.

An obvious exemption would have to be allowing dual UK Irish citizenship because of GFA.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909242#Comment_118909242

Well, the fact that citizens' assemblies have discussed other issues might cause a less dogmatic version of political analyst to question his own initial assumption that the point of citizens' assemblies was to secure the repeal of the eighth amendment. Just sayin'.

Madeleine Birchfield

Until the expat community is required to pay taxes to the Irish government like how expat Americans are required to pay taxes to the United States government, I am against them voting in Irish elections.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897177#Comment_118897177

So the Dail where laws are passed "for us and by us" shouldn't check to see if "us" (the people) want the changes brought in and the laws changed??

Peregrinus

This is not really about taxation, though. The "no representation without taxation" argument is just a humorous inversion of the familiar "no taxation without representation" line. The truth is I don't particularly like that line either. It suggests that political participation is founded on a financial relationship, which I find a bit . . . Thatcherite. We are citizens, not customers. Political engagement is not a market transaction.

Forget tax. It's just one of the many, many ways in which we contribute to/participate in/benefit from the community that we are a part of. The real issue is, if you're not subject to Ireland's laws (whether about tax or anything else), why should you have a voice in making those laws? If you don't live under the jurisdiction of the Irish authorities, why should you have a voice in electing those authorities?

Even if you own no property, earn no money and spend no money, so that you manage to pay no tax, if you live in Ireland you are still subject to Irish laws and affected by Irish public policy. If you are taken away in the middle of the night by the police and consigned to a nameless black hole, it will be by the Irish police. If you fall ill, you will go to an Irish hospital. Your children will go to an Irish school. If you want to marry your same-sex partner or have an abortion or work in a regulated profession, it is Irish law that will determine whether you can do so.

None of this is true of the non-resident, and I really can't see any reason why we would think that the non-resident should have a voice in determining what the Irish police can or can't do, what schools or hospitals Irish residents should provide for themselves, etc, etc.

Basically, it comes down to this. If your welfare and your fortune and your affairs are unconnected with the welfare and the fortunes and the affairs of those living in Ireland, what is the case for saying that you should be voting in Ireland?

You should be participating in the political life of the community of which you form a part, not of a different community of which you could form a part if you chose, when you have chosen not to. If you can't vote in the community that you participate in, that may be an injustice, but it's an injustice that is magnified, not remedied, by giving you a vote in a community that you don't participate in.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909704#Comment_118909704

The notion you cease to be a stakeholder in Ireland or cease to be part of your home community the minute you leave Ireland (be it to study, or temporarily relocate for work, or through family commitments) is quite frankly b*llshit and an insult to hundreds of thousands of Irish who have lived abroad for a period of time and returned.

Seriously retrograde point or view and rather the crux of the matter.

As an aside, bumped into a French aquiantance this morning. Her and a few copatriots are car pooling to travel to the French embassy to vote in the election. Bloody expat French sticking their nose in real French people's business I suppose.

markodaly

Here is a picture yesterday of people outside the French embassy in Dublin, voting in the presidential election.

Some of the dinosaurs here should tell them all about the 'No representation without taxation' spiel. I think they will be put in their place however :)

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909703#Comment_118909703

Should we have a referendum for every piece of legislation passed in the Dail?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910247#Comment_118910247

No, politicians generally give a manifesto out when they are running for government. If they are voted in, that gives tacit approval of their agenda. This isn't something I've ever seen on a political manifesto, especially in the main parties, therefore tacit approval couldn't be claimed. So put it to the people.