New referendum on dispora voting due

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887932#Comment_118887932

Voting is a privilege, not a right

LOL..

Just.. LOL

Says it all about those 'against' this proposal. The Dinosaur class of 2022.

gandalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889542#Comment_118889542

We could do what the French do and have a constituency for the diaspora. 3 seats that all those outside of Ireland who meet the criteria of being a citizen having lived here within 15 years can vote on. It won't skew things too much but will give a voice to those citizens outside Ireland. Obviously the length of absence would be up for debate, if people feel 15 years is too long, then maybe 10 years.

I don't think referendums should be opened up to the diaspora though.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889585#Comment_118889585

I was away for the gay marriage and abortion referendum and it was all Irish people in London were talking about. The effects they have on a country are not the same as voting for politicians.

Also look at all the people who go to Canada or Australia and know they will return in 2 years. It's surely important for them.

I think 5 years is fair for a referendum.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888823#Comment_118888823

Except of course if a case goes to the ECJ and they make a ruling against the state, where the state is then obliged to buck up and sort itself out. Again, much of the arguments against this remind me of the old nationalistic attitudes of Brexiters.

Quin_Dub

I would only support something like this under pretty limited terms.

They must have been registered to vote in Ireland previously ( in other words , have lived here as an adult). I would not in any way support 2nd generation Irish voting in National elections if they've never lived here for example.

They can only vote "overseas" for a limited time , perhaps 5 or 10 years from the date of the last vote they cast as a resident. With that time limit in place it provides for those that are temporarily overseas due to study or work or whatever and that are actually planning on returning.

I'd lean towards the 5 year limit as that should cover voting for a President/Dail that you might actually be resident under on your return.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889628#Comment_118889628

And if we don't buck up and sort ourselves out, markodaly, what dire consequences do we face?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889219#Comment_118889219

Excellent post with points very well made.

Your example while recent is a reminder to all that many an Irish family was able to put food on the table and put children through school and College from money sent home by other family members working abroad, mostly from the UK.

There has been a bit of research done into this and it's conclusive that without the money sent home from the diaspora the poverty, illness and death here would have been much much greater. In fact, many say it was the life support of the nation for centuries.

https://www.theirishstory.com/2019/02/08/invisible-income-remittances-from-the-diaspora-sustained-ireland-for-over-a-century/#.Yk2r-m7MJjM

The World Bank estimates that Irish emigrants sent €610 million home in 2012, up from just under €450 million in 2009, and more than double the figure 10 years previously.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/rural-ireland-would-not-have-survived-without-money-being-sent-home-by-emigrants-1.4081919

With this in mind, Ireland and those who still live here should be on their knees thanking those Irish abroad for their help. Ireland treats its emigrants terribly, that is a fact.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889628#Comment_118889628

There's not much the State can do if voters reject a referendum. This one would definitely be in the minor tweak can't be bothered to vote category. It's only similar to a Brexit is that such arguments could sway the day quite easily in a low turnout. There is a rump of 20%-25% who will always vote against any proposal so the possibility of it failing rise quite dramatically as they are motivated to vote.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889687#Comment_118889687

Yet, there is no need for a referendum as there is no constitutional bar to those abroad having a vote. Legally, the Dail could vote this in tomorrow and be done with it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889677#Comment_118889677

Well, we could become the next Hungary.... I guess you would be OK with this.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889696#Comment_118889696

It's still a question that should be asked of people as it is a fundamental change to the voting system. Nothing like bad, rushed legislation to really get people's backs up. Not sure any party would be prepared to take that mantle on.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889744#Comment_118889744

I think any changes have to come with a revamp of the electoral register to add in those elements that you talk about.

Your Aunt is an anomaly that would be hard to fully legislate for, but I'd support people having to re-affirm their registration status every 5 years or similar.

And that should include providing proof of residence.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889711#Comment_118889711

Ask the people so they can have a rant and vote it down, to get back at the boys up in Dublin?

Sounds like a great plan. We should put housing as a right and water as a right into the constitution next. What could ever go wrong!?

ROFL!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889744#Comment_118889744

Well if your Aunty is already doing that then her and anyone like her is already doing it so what does changing the rules for other people really change ?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889893#Comment_118889893

Do you want to indicate either legislation or the bit of the Constitution that allows them to do this legislatively so that we can head off the spectre of your great unwashed offering an opinion on anything?

So posters believe that voting should only be for the people who actually live full time in Ireland?

In that case, should we change the rules to allow all residents to vote in all elections & referendums? Considering that they live here and have to live with the consequences

Strumms

Imagine the cost to the state, if say 4 million people in other countries want to vote…

the extra postal costs of sending out and receiving back the ballot papers…storing them etc..

many more people involved in the counting…this modern day inclusivity spoofery….

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889971#Comment_118889971

Yes

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886539#Comment_118886539

Take the time to understand what that actually means and the role of the president in how the state is governed.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889971#Comment_118889971

Sure, after a reasonable amount of time as a resident. This one we can actually do without another referendum; we can just make the citizenship process more efficient (the €1,000 cost is excessive for a start) and make it clear to foreign citizens that they can have a voice in all elections by obtaining citizenship.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889971#Comment_118889971

That would also require a referendum change as well. Incidentally the proposal looks like it would affect Article 12.2 of the Constitution which currently states

1° The President shall be elected by direct vote of the people.

2° Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at an election for President.

If you live abroad you can't vote in Dail elections so the presidential is also out.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886551#Comment_118886551

Probably the same was as the senate vote is done today and the same what as most other countries do it - postal vote.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886618#Comment_118886618

And you don't understand the actual demand that was being made!!!!

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889823#Comment_118889823

These things are hard to prove because functionally anyone can "keep" an address so long as they have family here.

There is a more efficient way of compiling a register which can exclude duplicates and shysters, but many won't like it: We use Revenue records. If someone is resident in Ireland, then they will have either collected social welfare, paid PAYE or filed an tax return in the last 2 years. If they haven't, then they probably haven't been here.

For the 0.01% of people who fall outside this (e.g. by being independently wealthy), then they can present proof that they have been resident in order to get on the register.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890068#Comment_118890068

As I understand it, a UK citizen who has never been in Ireland can land in Knock Airport and be immediately eligible to be put on the electoral register, but, have no entitlement to vote in Presedential election.

Don't ask me how that's administered, but that is my understanding of their entitlement.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890121#Comment_118890121

Yeah, that's because of reciprocal election laws here and in the UK on the GE. Think they've been around since the 80s.

blanch152

I'm looking forward to the Presidential election run-off between Bono and Daniel.

Think the wee boy would take it by a whisker.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890137#Comment_118890137

It kind of goes to show the ridiculousness of the set up though.

A UK citizen with no link to Ireland can land in Ireland and immediately contribute fully to the democratic process from day 1, bar presidential vote (not arguing against this btw, I'm aware of the reciprocity at play).

Yet we have people here flipping the lid at the thought of an Irish person born and bred, lifetime taxpayer and community member, living outside of the country perhaps temporarily for work or family reasons, having a vote while overseas.

It's hard to credit this attitude.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886629#Comment_118886629

It would be intolerable to have a situation where those living in the country would be governed by those abroad, it is not a stretch for some gang to fire up a bunch of Irish American voters for some cause or other and so on. On the other hand, for those who wish, I think there should be some kind of opportunity for them to participate and be acknowledged, after all we were at one time dependent on the money sent home by previous generations of these voters. Even in my time, unto about 4 or 5 the parcel at Christmas was an important event.

The only country I am familiar with is Switzerland, where I live. Here the Swiss abroad can vote at the federal level, but not at the local level where all key decisions about daily life are made.

I think the office of President is a good compromise, beyond the approval of bills etc, it does not have any role of great importance in the daily running of the state. It is at the same time it is a significant office and it is apolitical, the president represents the country and all citizens, not just those who vote for them.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890179#Comment_118890179

Yeah, but we can do exactly the same in the UK, one of the perks of the CTA. The presidential question here is effectively "hardcoded" in our 85 year old Constitution.

Rket4000

I remember the time the referendum on divorce was passed in Ireland by a very small majority. I remember a discussion on the subject the following week. One of my neighbours was saying that her daughter, who was married and living in England for a good few years, was very upset with the result because not permitting divorce was something that made Ireland different. I was thinking so if she had her way and her marriage went south she'd be able to get a divorce in England, but her sisters in Ireland would be denied that right in the same circumstances because she wanted Ireland to stay the way she remembered it.

That was when I decided that people who don't have to live with the consequences shouldn't have a vote. I realise this discussion is about presidential elections, but if that got through it would only be the start of it.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886759#Comment_118886759

The ECJ would have to make an actually ruling before it would have an impact. Now contrary to what people think the EU has limited sovereignty powers and they are powers we have granted it. So I would be very interested for a pointer to the treaty article that he ECJ could potentially rule on.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890202#Comment_118890202

I have the distinct feeling that UK citizens are still voting in Presedential elections, are sent polling cards and it's just widely ignored.

Unless they maintain a separate electoral register parsed for Brits (which I doubt). Perhaps a poster who has worked on these matters could enlighten us.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890252#Comment_118890252

They do keep a separate electoral register and your nationality is noted.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890208#Comment_118890208

Divorce would have won by a much higher majority I reckon. It excludes primarily young people from a vote on the future which is one of the reasons the holy Joe's held out as long as they did with their marriage/abortion/contraception BS

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889971#Comment_118889971

Yes - I'd be fine with that once they have established roots here - The 5 year rule should apply both ways.

You can continue to vote for 5 years after you leave and you can start to vote once you've lived here for 5 years.

if you are living here and using the services provided by the State you should have a voice in how those Services are delivered.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890367#Comment_118890367

Being young doesn't automatically make you radical! Actually divorce went down the first time on concerns about inheritance. You're also likely to find a good spread of support of this so-called BS across all age groups.

It doesn't matter how close it is, it's not a competition, merely an attempt by a government to persuade people to agree to a Constitutional change, even one passed by a handful of votes. Quite a few have failed down the years, including two attempts by FF to change our electoral system to FPTP.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890444#Comment_118890444

No you don't find a good spread of support across age groups. Polling breakdown consistently shows young people are more liberal (believing in divorce, gay marriage etc. is not radical)

This is only my experience so not factual stats but most Irish immigrants I met in the UK talked about how delighted they were to get out of strict catholic Ireland in the 60/70/80s.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890495#Comment_118890495

My point is more to do with just finger pointing at so-called older people and assuming they only vote one way. For all their claimed beliefs, that younger cohort, especially the 18-30s, have a habit of just not voting. Results are based on those who show up. Personally not all that impressed by those who won't allow themselves to get over events from over half a life back and some of them carry it like a badge.

Rket4000

That's not the point. My point is that if she'd had a vote she could have voted in a way that she wouldn't have had to live with the consequences of. And as it happens I reckon she would have been in her late 20s at the time.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890543#Comment_118890543

Oh no would not assume that older people all vote one way but the stats are there that they are more likely to be conservative voters and young people more likely to be liberal ones. It's especially problematic when you had people leaving the country specifically because of things like sexual orientation which helps take that issue off the board.

My proposal rules out the "half a life back" people as I'm only advocating for a 5 year voting amnesty.

ZeroThreat

tbh I'd be happy with current voting laws remaining provided the 3 year 'ordinarily resident' tax rules are discarded. Whoever thought up that law had some brass neck.

Been away from Ireland for a long time and don't think I should have a vote. Things like Springboard require you to have spent three of the last five years resident in Ireland and I think the same would be fair for voting.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894790#Comment_118894790

I was sad to miss out on a few votes when I was away but at the end of the day I understood why. What absolutely disgusted me though was the way I was treated by the likes of the dole when I came home. Wanting to know where my parents came from and where we planned to live as if me and my family were first time immigrants despite most having never left.

amacca

There's no way the diaspora should get a vote

Afaic they can have one if/when they come back and live here....at least then there's a chance (however small) they might think about the consequences of their decision.......

People shouldn't have a say in the running of a country they aint living in, recipe for disaster imo

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895116#Comment_118895116

There is a massive difference between an emigrant and the diaspora. Many of the diaspora never lived here but then there is a kid who spends a year in Australia but is unlucky because they miss a vote that can have a massive effect on Ireland for years and years to come.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895148#Comment_118895148

This proposal would have no effect on that scenario as it's only about a vote in the presidential election.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895170#Comment_118895170

Ya true but the conversation had long since moved on to other votes too.

I would have a 10 year limit on Presidential elections as I said earlier.

HalloweenJack

It's coming up to 11 years since I left Ireland and I still don't have any plans to go back. I'm married now (to a foreigner) and working on my career (one that doesn't have as many opportunities back home) so things would have to change quite dramatically for me to end up back in Ireland.

I can see both sides of the argument. I don't think it's particularly fair to vote for decisions that are never going to affect me on a day-to-day basis and when I don't 'contribute' (pay tax). However, there are decisions that do affect me, like a referendum on this issue which I'd want to vote on. I'd be more interested in just having a vote for referenda as it could go some way to having a say about the core principles which define my country.

For example, if there was an Irexit vote, I'd want to have a say as it'd have a big impact on my life. I wasn't one of the 'home to vote' crowd but the marriage and abortion refs were ones I'd have liked to have a say in.

I wouldn't be too upset if I didn't get to vote in the Dail electiond as the result isn't going to have as much of an impact. There are rarely politicians who target their country's diaspora; more often than not, they actively play up to them.

I still have an Irish passport which provides me with the benefits of Irish citizenship; however, I don't get any say in what those benefits may be. It's not like you can choose where you're born or your family's situation at the time of your birth, either. It's not like I had any say in being Irish so I don't think it's fair that I should be denied rights just because I wanted to live sonewhere else.

I live in Spain where only Spanish nationals can vote in general elections, despite me paying tax here. If I were to become a Spanish citizen, I'd have to give up my Irish citizenship, which I have no interest in doing, unless it was a necessity in order to preserve the life I've made for myself here.

So I'm in a political no man's land which is quite frustrating, though it lets me point the finger at everyone and smugly say 'Well, I didn't vote for them'.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889942#Comment_118889942

Again, there is no Constitutional requirements here, so talk of "WE MUST CONSULT THE PEOPLE!" calls from those who would be against any proposal in the hope it would be voted down.

The Dail itself is the people's house, where laws are passed for us and by us. No reason why we should have a referendum on this if we legally do not have to. The dinosaurs may disagree of course.