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New referendum on dispora voting due



  • Registered Users Posts: 75,852 ✭✭✭✭ Atlantic Dawn

    How would it be administered? I know some countries use their overseas embassies for emigrants to cast their votes. The postal vote suggestion is open to abuse.

  • Registered Users Posts: 72,057 ✭✭✭✭ Overheal

    What would be your effective tax rate as an Irish person living in Canada or Germany? Yikes.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    Its actually the wrong way around.... ROFL

    Am I right in saying that Ireland is the ONLY EU country that does not offer its Irish people abroad the ability to vote in elections?

  • Registered Users Posts: 717 ✭✭✭ macvin

    The reason for that was a huge number of expats exist and thus could skew results.

    Very few other countries would have the relative % of expats.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,302 ✭✭✭ Yurt2

    Fun fact: we are the only country in Europe (besides Malta*, which I'll get into) that doesn't allow overseas voting for citizens on its electoral roll.

    This referendum is only happening because of a ECHR case that deemed that the disenfranchisement of citizens abroad was a breach of their fundamental rights.

    Britain has voting for expatriates on their register for 15 years after leaving the UK and the sky hasn't fallen down.

    *Because of the above case, Malta actually pays for flights for citizens to return home to vote (agreement how overseas voting should work has not been agreed by the Maltese government).

    The referendum is the minimum that the state is willing to go to fudge the issue of overseas voting and hoping it will go away. Why? Because they are afraid an Irish citizen will eventually make it all the way to the ECJ with a case that the refusal to allow Dáil voting rights for citizens overseas is a breach of their EU freedom of movement rights, and I've read legal opinion from academic experts that they'll likely win such a case.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,302 ✭✭✭ Yurt2

    New Zealand does, and has overseas voting for its citizens. Italy would be similar.

    The fear that it would distort election results is way overblown.

    Allowing citizens to vote for X number of years after leaving the country is sensible and would not significantly alter election results.

    Many many people live abroad for short stints before returning home. They are effected by the comings and goings of Irish politics when they are gone, and they deserve a voice.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,302 ✭✭✭ Yurt2

    I'll give you an example: Someone who is seconded by an Irish company abroad for a number of years shouldn't have any say at election time?

  • Registered Users Posts: 72,057 ✭✭✭✭ Overheal

    How would a passport holder not be contributing by voting?

  • Registered Users Posts: 30,903 ✭✭✭✭ listermint

    Why. They chose to leave. They weren't sent away. It's not impacting their rights their decisions on location impact that the same as it impacts their social security entitlements.

  • Registered Users Posts: 38,866 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail

    voting in not contributing. voting is getting a say in how a country is run. a country they don't live in.

  • Registered Users Posts: 72,057 ✭✭✭✭ Overheal

    A country they hold passports for.

    If I'm an Irishman abroad and the populist demagogue at home is about to win the election and drag the country into a war, in the country say, I may currently live in, maybe I should have some say in that case to say "kindly no, thanks."

  • Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭ Jellybaby_1

    My relatives abroad wouldn't bother voting because they said they don't know anything about our politicians or politics any more and they're not even interested. They left (like many others) because there was nothing here for them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭ NSAman

    Works in American elections know what they early and vote often.

    so the 20 years I contributed taxes and the thousands I pay in vat and other taxes in ireland since moving abroad should give me a say…?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 72,057 ✭✭✭✭ Overheal

    Which may be how a lot of diaspora would view it. For much larger, high profile votes though, like constitutional referendums, there may be plenty who might wish to exercise their right to weigh in on something so momentous.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    So you admit, it's the wrong way around and you used the phrase incorrectly in order the make a poorly made point?

    The 'No representation without taxation' crowd are a weird bunch, a throwback to the age of Victoria where only the wealthy and landowner class had a vote. This is the same argument in a contemporary fashion.

    Then of course we have 40% odd of working people who pay no income tax in this country. Does the same soundbite apply to them? We also have emigrants abroad who still own property, businesses and have capital in this country, who do pay tax.... are they to be exempt?

    Again, pretty much all have ignored the fact that Ireland is an outlier here in European terms. Do the 'No representation without taxation' crowd think that Irish Exceptionalism overrule here?

    Lastly, the proposal is for a vote for the presidency, which has the power to do sweet **** all, so no, some foreign Irish lads wont be voting in higher levels of tax anytime soon, so you can put away those pitch forks.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

     My point is that nobody should have representation if they don't contribute to the country

    On this, I guess we can exclude 40% Plus of the adult Irish taxpayers given they do not pay income tax? Fair is fair, right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    How much change does the Presidency confer to the average Irish person?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,302 ✭✭✭ Yurt2

    There would be many that regrettably think this way.

    There is no legal or constitutional link between taxation and voting.

    The only example I can think of was Northern Ireland where the fundamental democratic principal of one man one vote was subverted and gerrymandered by (typically Unionist) landowners who thought they should get more votes in local elections as they paid more local rates. That worked out just dandy didn't it?

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    You are correct about the ECJ. Ireland will have to change its way in the way it treats its citizens who reside abroad. Alas, there is still many dinosaurs in Ireland who have a caveman view on things, as evidenced in this thread.

    I guess the same Dinosaurs among us will want an Irexit because of those pesky Europeans telling us what to do!

  • Many Irish people living abroad continue to pay taxes in Ireland, whether it's through the renting of their Irish properties, the taxes on their savings in bank accounts or whatever.

    All of my online work is taxed in Ireland through an accountant here, so, throughout the decade I lived in China, a sizable portion of my income was being taxed in Ireland. I've published two books, and the earnings from the publishing house were sent to my Irish bank account, with Revenue getting a cut, even though I was living abroad at the time. For many Irish people, they want to have the fall-back option of the State pension, and so, will continue to be taxed for their contributions... there's other reasons to do it, regardless of the expense involved, but the pension contributions would likely be the most common reason.

    Although TBH I can't really see the point in Irish people abroad having access to elections for Presidents. A vote in referendums, now, that would be worth something.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,302 ✭✭✭ Yurt2

    I'll try to dig it out tommorow, but I read a piece by an academic that such a case would almost certainly succeed when taken. All it will take is an Irish citizen residing in an EU country with locus standi, and the will to follow it through the various courts, and the state will have to start whistling a different tune.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    Its the Bull McCabe mentality that still exists in Ireland.

    "If I have something, I will do my best to not let my neighbour get it, or get ahead"

    Some Irish people are some of the most entitled people on the planet with that type of thinking.