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New referendum on dispora voting due

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    no representation without taxation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,753 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    How would it be administered? I know some countries use their overseas embassies for emigrants to cast their votes. The postal vote suggestion is open to abuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    What would be your effective tax rate as an Irish person living in Canada or Germany? Yikes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I don't personally think you should be allowed vote unless you live here and are impacted by your choices tbh.

    That includes being in and paying into our system.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Its actually the wrong way around.... ROFL

    Am I right in saying that Ireland is the ONLY EU country that does not offer its Irish people abroad the ability to vote in elections?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    it isn't. you just don't understand what I am saying. The original phrase from from the beginnings of the american war of independence was no taxation without representation i.e. they were being taxed and received no presentation in parliament in return. My point is that nobody should have representation if they don't contribute to the country. I thought that was pretty clear but perhaps i should have dumbed it down. ROFL.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 716 ✭✭✭macvin


    The reason for that was a huge number of expats exist and thus could skew results.

    Very few other countries would have the relative % of expats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Fun fact: we are the only country in Europe (besides Malta*, which I'll get into) that doesn't allow overseas voting for citizens on its electoral roll.

    This referendum is only happening because of a ECHR case that deemed that the disenfranchisement of citizens abroad was a breach of their fundamental rights.

    Britain has voting for expatriates on their register for 15 years after leaving the UK and the sky hasn't fallen down.

    *Because of the above case, Malta actually pays for flights for citizens to return home to vote (agreement how overseas voting should work has not been agreed by the Maltese government).

    The referendum is the minimum that the state is willing to go to fudge the issue of overseas voting and hoping it will go away. Why? Because they are afraid an Irish citizen will eventually make it all the way to the ECJ with a case that the refusal to allow Dáil voting rights for citizens overseas is a breach of their EU freedom of movement rights, and I've read legal opinion from academic experts that they'll likely win such a case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Who would take such a case though only a wealthy busy body. I think any legitimate person would fully understand if they don't live and contribute then they shouldn't be voting for changes that they have no skin in



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    I'd be dead set against it.

    Decisions on who should hovern us should not be swayed by those not living here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    New Zealand does, and has overseas voting for its citizens. Italy would be similar.

    The fear that it would distort election results is way overblown.

    Allowing citizens to vote for X number of years after leaving the country is sensible and would not significantly alter election results.

    Many many people live abroad for short stints before returning home. They are effected by the comings and goings of Irish politics when they are gone, and they deserve a voice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'll give you an example: Someone who is seconded by an Irish company abroad for a number of years shouldn't have any say at election time?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How would a passport holder not be contributing by voting?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Why. They chose to leave. They weren't sent away. It's not impacting their rights their decisions on location impact that the same as it impacts their social security entitlements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    voting in not contributing. voting is getting a say in how a country is run. a country they don't live in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    An Irish citizen abroad wishing to vote is a wealthy busy body? Fundamental rights are fundamental rights no matter what you may think of the person taking any hypothetical case

    A reminder that we're the *only* European country that doesn't have any mechanism for overseas citizens to vote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    A country they hold passports for.

    If I'm an Irishman abroad and the populist demagogue at home is about to win the election and drag the country into a war, in the country say, I may currently live in, maybe I should have some say in that case to say "kindly no, thanks."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    My relatives abroad wouldn't bother voting because they said they don't know anything about our politicians or politics any more and they're not even interested. They left (like many others) because there was nothing here for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Works in American elections cough..you know what they say..vote early and vote often.

    so the 20 years I contributed taxes and the thousands I pay in vat and other taxes in ireland since moving abroad should give me a say…?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Which may be how a lot of diaspora would view it. For much larger, high profile votes though, like constitutional referendums, there may be plenty who might wish to exercise their right to weigh in on something so momentous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Another obvious example was the generation that left Ireland to work during the financial crash (most would have returned home). Those young people were utterly failed by the political class, did themselves and above all the country a massive favour in emigrating and not being on the dole and were in Canada/AUS/EU totally cut out of the political system.

    In the strongest terms, those people should have been morally well entitled to vote in Dáil elections. The Irish political system missed a crucial feedback loop (one they were terrified of if we're to be honest as the young bore the brunt of that recession) in keeping them far away from a ballot box in Sydney, London or Toronto.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    So you admit, it's the wrong way around and you used the phrase incorrectly in order the make a poorly made point?


    The 'No representation without taxation' crowd are a weird bunch, a throwback to the age of Victoria where only the wealthy and landowner class had a vote. This is the same argument in a contemporary fashion.

    Then of course we have 40% odd of working people who pay no income tax in this country. Does the same soundbite apply to them? We also have emigrants abroad who still own property, businesses and have capital in this country, who do pay tax.... are they to be exempt?

    Again, pretty much all have ignored the fact that Ireland is an outlier here in European terms. Do the 'No representation without taxation' crowd think that Irish Exceptionalism overrule here?

    Lastly, the proposal is for a vote for the presidency, which has the power to do sweet **** all, so no, some foreign Irish lads wont be voting in higher levels of tax anytime soon, so you can put away those pitch forks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


     My point is that nobody should have representation if they don't contribute to the country

    On this, I guess we can exclude 40% Plus of the adult Irish taxpayers given they do not pay income tax? Fair is fair, right?

    ROFL



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    How much change does the Presidency confer to the average Irish person?

    Nada!


    ROFL!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There would be many that regrettably think this way.

    There is no legal or constitutional link between taxation and voting.

    The only example I can think of was Northern Ireland where the fundamental democratic principal of one man one vote was subverted and gerrymandered by (typically Unionist) landowners who thought they should get more votes in local elections as they paid more local rates. That worked out just dandy didn't it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    You are correct about the ECJ. Ireland will have to change its way in the way it treats its citizens who reside abroad. Alas, there is still many dinosaurs in Ireland who have a caveman view on things, as evidenced in this thread.

    I guess the same Dinosaurs among us will want an Irexit because of those pesky Europeans telling us what to do!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Many Irish people living abroad continue to pay taxes in Ireland, whether it's through the renting of their Irish properties, the taxes on their savings in bank accounts or whatever.

    All of my online work is taxed in Ireland through an accountant here, so, throughout the decade I lived in China, a sizable portion of my income was being taxed in Ireland. I've published two books, and the earnings from the publishing house were sent to my Irish bank account, with Revenue getting a cut, even though I was living abroad at the time. For many Irish people, they want to have the fall-back option of the State pension, and so, will continue to be taxed for their contributions... there's other reasons to do it, regardless of the expense involved, but the pension contributions would likely be the most common reason.

    Although TBH I can't really see the point in Irish people abroad having access to elections for Presidents. A vote in referendums, now, that would be worth something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'll try to dig it out tommorow, but I read a piece by an academic that such a case would almost certainly succeed when taken. All it will take is an Irish citizen residing in an EU country with locus standi, and the will to follow it through the various courts, and the state will have to start whistling a different tune.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Its the Bull McCabe mentality that still exists in Ireland.

    "If I have something, I will do my best to not let my neighbour get it, or get ahead"

    Some Irish people are some of the most entitled people on the planet with that type of thinking.



  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 2,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Nigel Fairservice


    It's an interesting one. Ireland has many citizens who acquired Irish citizenship through Foreign Birth Registration and may not know much about the political landscape here in Ireland. They may never have even been to Ireland. This would be the case with many of the children of my first cousins abroad. You'll also have Irish citizens abroad who spent many years living in Ireland and would keep up with political events back home and may want a continued say in things. You probably can't turn around and tell the recent emigrant that it is ok for them to have a vote but deny a vote to 30 year old Australian who has Irish citizenship through a grandparent. I lived abroad for a few years and missed a presidential election. I watched one or two of the debates on the RTE player but it didn't really bother me to miss the election.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Given the shoddy quality of some of the recent Presidential candidates, the question of adding a large non-resident block who could potentially swing an election on their own will be part of the campaign. It will be important to identify just how many of these potential voters there could be. That 70m figure will definitely see it fail. TBH this sounds like a proposal that will be greeted with a fair level of indifference and referendum voters could opt for option C if they are unpersuaded, that of maintaining the status quo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I deliberately reversed it to make a point. have you received a bang on the head recently?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    so every third or fourth generation irish passport holder should have a say in how the country is ran?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos


    I dont necessarily agree with the tax element. But i do agree you should live here



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos


    To vote that is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    the irish abroad have no right to vote in irish elections but you want that to be the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Ah I'm against giving every passport holder residing abroad a vote on something that won't impact them so I'm for irexit.


    This thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous.


    I wouldn't expect to vote in an election abroad I'm actually unsure why the posters on this thread would. You don't live here. You don't want to live here. You chose to leave most likely for your personal economic situation not out of some grand standing save the country from your dole . The thread is off the wall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,165 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    We should let the whole world vote for our president, the position matters little in the grand scheme of things. (That's a bit facetious but representation via paying tax doesn't really apply in this case in the same way voting for TDs, MEPs and councillors would).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos


    Yeah theres posters saying that people who dont agree are self absorbed comparing it to the bull mccabe attitude. It would be extremely self absorbed to vote in elections of a country when you dont live there



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    It's proposed for the presidential election, nothing else. Our president just signs the laws and is otherwise a diplomat. They don't run the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    That's what the referendum is for. It should be explained once we see one proposed and then people can make up their own minds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos


    Ah yeah fair, im not against a referendum for it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,638 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    why should a third or fourth generation irish passport holder have a say in that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos




  • Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's a good point actually.

    I might be swayed by a time limit of 5 years after you leave but no longer. People gone 5+ years tend to stay gone long term

    You should not have influence on a country you don't live in and where your choice affects millions but not you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    I don't know why you imagine I know more about this proposal than you. It's just a newspaper article for now. Presumably all will be revealed in due course and then we can vote on it. Incidentally there have been a fair number of referenda that have failed as they tried to go through the Dail or the people just rejected them. This one has a low turnout written all over it so one would assume there would be more than one to vote on at the same time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    I'm an emigrant. Moved to England 11 years ago. I don't think I should have the right to vote in Ireland anymore. Doesn't seem fair to me that I get a say in your lives.



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