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Too many people would have to keep it a secret...

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Once again you completely missed the point. Given this, it’s pointless to continue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    It's very simple - you made a comment more or less saying the FDA is an impenetrable body of oversight, which is absolutely not true. Now you are backtracking with double speak because the debate is getting too hot to handle for you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. Nope. Do you think that anyone else believes that's what he's saying?


    Also, again a bit weird for you to accuse someone of this given how you bravely announced how you were going to ignore critical questions and have been dodging pretty much any point made against you.


    Complete, embarrassing hypocrisy here.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    The likelihood to hide research like this, subject to FDA oversights, peer reviews, and public reports is beyond my imagination

    You said it right here. And when I highlighted the fact that this relies on companies being honest with the data they acquire and how they present it, you went on a tangent about a novelty statistics book. Not sure why you are talking as though you've demystified any chance of wrong-doing in the industry. Just because you say you worked in an FDA controlled research team doesn't give what you say more weight than everyone else.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But we should believe you when you claim to have done work for companies and committed active fraud?

    Why would we believe anything you say when you believe very silly stuff and have been caught out in lies before?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    This has to be one of the most bizarre threads on boards. It proposes that a gargantuan secret can exist without requiring "thousands of people" to keep a secret. And yet the sceptics of the forum feel that this is not possible!

    Yet another clear example in the media in the last two weeks with the RTE fiasco. Scandal after deception after lie after fraud coming out of the organisation. An organisation of Journalists!!!

    So my question, how did all these hundreds of journalists manage to keep this secret for so many years?

    😂



  • Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    excuse me??


    before all of this blew up, where did you post that you had a conspiracy that ryan tubridy was actually being paid more than was being declared?

    or marty morrissey was driving a free car?

    isnt there a very big element of "after timing" here now with you?


    this is simply a case of a lack of proper oversight allowing craven people being very loose with public money. eventually it all comes out in the wash... as is happening


    where is the conspiracy here?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Why do you think it will always come out in the wash? Almost sounds biblical: "God will reveal all"

    And also, I would like you to please clarify why one of the 100+ journalists did not blow the whistle from 2019-2022 where the scandal was successfully maintained?

    Post edited by Markus Antonius on


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But your example contradicts your position.

    We are now finding out about all of the financial irregularities at RTE.

    They weren't able to keep their secret.

    Yet you content that literally millions of people all over the world are able to maintain the conspiracy to fake all space flight and to convince people that the world is round.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,445 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    So there were too many people to keep it a secret at RTE.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Any yet Markus is claiming that as something that proves the conceit of the thread and to declare us bizarre for not agreeing with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    No, it was an audit that revealed the deception. It could have been hidden away for far longer/indefinitely if the perps weren't so sloppy/greedy.

    Do you believe the board of executives that only Dee Forbes would have known about all the details of Tubridy's top-up?

    Always gets so quiet in the conspiracy forum when the skeptics step on a rake. It was the same with the blindingly obvious Covid Lab leak (which was so vehemently denied in this forum) was then accepted as most likely. 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,445 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    The amount of waffle posted on these forums touted as "fact". Must be dozens of discredited conspiracy theories.

    And you're still clinging on to one falsehood, the lab leak. The theory was that it was man made, on purpose, in a lab.

    And no, I don't think Dee was the only one who knew. But there were clearly too many people to keep it a secret. Which is why it came out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    You don't debunk any conspiracy theories. You have two tools in your arsenal:

    1. CNN fact checker
    2. Too many people would have to keep it a secret

    You consider anything that doesn't pass either of the above tests as being "discredited". This thread very clearly delegitimizes Tool #2 (There is no known cure for Tool #1).

    Using the skeptics own argument, surely everyone in RTE would have had to keep it a secret? Just like the thousands and thousands of scientists who would have had to keep the moonlanding conspiracy theory a secret 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    So again, you are claiming that this somehow proves your insistence that all conspiracy theories can be true, but then point out that it was too big to be kept secret.

    And again, you are proposing this in the context of your own claimed belief that all space travel is faked.


    The people at RTE were too greedy trying to pocket a few million. And this was what exposed them.

    Meanwhile millions of people are involved in the fake space industry, spending trillions over decades for literally no reason. And this to you is something that can be obviously kept secret.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,445 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Yeah they were trying desperately to keep it a secret but allowed a financial audit team to come in



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again, you are exposing how your own argument fails.

    RTE has a grand total of 1800.

    The number of people who would need to be involved in your conspiracy theory about space travel would be in the millions, spaning many countries, agencies and companies.


    You are contending that RTE was exposed because "they were too big".

    This clearly does not make sense, hence why you aren't addressing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Audits happen in every company, usually every year. Why didn't the 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 audits reveal the deception?

    Still avoiding the question on why someone at some point didn't blow the whistle during this half a decade.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    That's the million dollar question and part of what the PAC are trying to get to the bottom of.

    Are you saying it's not a conspiracy theory? Because I don't think anyone is maintaining that it is? Or are you saying the whole thing is fake?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭the.red.baron




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    No, I'm saying deceptions can exist within organisations, which flies in the face of one of the sceptics most overused arguments i.e. too many people would have to keep it a secret.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Mischaracterization on several levels.

    First, you keep pretending that this is the only argument that is used against you and your fellow conspiracy theorists. This is false. We often point out when theories are flawed and nonsensical and where they rely on incorrect information. The fact that many conspiracy theories rely on huge amounts of people to work is usually just one of many many logical issues with them.

    Secondly, you are trying to claim that skeptics (ie, people who don't believe your conspiracy theories) are arguing that deceptions can't exist in organisations. This is false. No one is arguing this.

    Finally, your own personal conspiracy theories are perfect examples of ones that fall down because they require too many people to keep it a secret.

    Not once have you ever attempted to address this issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,867 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Deceptions can exist within organisations. But the rest of your post is illogical. How does that disprove "too many people would have to keep it secret"?

    Your post is completely lacking in logic and evidence.

    It was missed by earlier auditors because of how it was reported, and the amounts.

    You're implying, completely without any evidence or justification, that the earlier auditors spotted it and knew what was going on and kept quiet.

    What do you have to justify that? I'm guessing nothing?

    Whereas what seems to have happened is that it come up on audit radar as it was over €100,000 when two payments were bundled together.

    Tubridy received two payments of €75,000 each in 2022, totalling €150,000 (being a payment for 2021 and a payment for 2022). It was these payments that prompted the review by Grant Thornton in late March of this year. 

    https://www.thejournal.ie/external-investigation-potential-financial-issue-rte-6100006-Jun2023/#:~:text=In%20a%20statement%20released%20by,was%20understated%20publicly%20since%202017.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    It doesnt fly in the face of anything. Your RTE example can't be applied to conspiracy theories, because its not one. Deceptions can exist within organisations. You're making a giant leap trying to use it as blanket proof conspiracy theories aren't conspiracies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    You're implying, completely without any evidence or justification, that the earlier auditors spotted it and knew what was going on and kept quiet.

    I'm not implying this at all, that's ridiculous. Earlier auditors either weren't provided information relating to the barter account or were clearly willing to accept the spurious "Consultancy fee" transactions. There is no reason why they wouldn't have continued to accept this for years and years to come.

    "knew what was going on and kept quiet" 🤣 This is just more of the simplistic and irrational perceptions you have of conspiracy theories


    I never said it was a conspiracy theory. I said it was another example where a deception can exist within an organisation and remain uncovered due to the compartmentalisation that exists within companies.

    The same compartmentalisation that exists in NASA, which allowed the moonlanding hoax survive for a year or so.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    I never said it was a conspiracy theory. I said it was another example where a deception can exist within an organisation and remain uncovered due to the compartmentalisation that exists within companies.

    There are lots of examples of deception within companies. That's why audits are necessary. Surely you didn't need the current RTE revelations to tell you that? But applying that to conspiracy theories is trying to put a square peg in a round hole.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    There is no reason why they wouldn't have continued to accept this for years and years to come.

    But they didn't. It was exposed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,867 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    A deception that existed because the sums were small. It wasn't because of compartmentalisation. A deception brought to light when auditors queried it... No reason to why they wouldn't have continued to accept it... Except they didn't. So you just disproved your own argument, as is often the case with these dubious claims.

    But sure, pretend to yourself that NASA could run such great conspiracy on such a budget when it has been pointed out to you that too many people would have to KNOW. Actually have knowledge of the deception. Not merely smoke and mirrors with budgets and invoices.

    This is an entirely different situation, and you know it.

    Your claims are completely illogical and without evidence. They have no credibility. As credible as your claims about the moon landing and satellites not being real.

    So yeah, too many people would have to KNOW and it is "simplistic and irrational" to propose that an organisation fiddling a small sum of its budget in any way disproves that with regard to the grand conspiracies you are trying to apply it to.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Right, so there are currently zero deceptions going on that will not be revealed in due course 👍️

    You can't be this naïve



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