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Too many people would have to keep it a secret...

Markus Antonius

I've been presented with quite a number of peculiar and frankly bizarre arguments for why certain conspiracy theories simply could not be within the realms reality. One of the most regularly presented, which also so happens to be one of the most weak, pathetic and quite frankly - lazy arguments to say the least has to be:

"In order for XXX to happen, thousands of people would have to be in on the secret"

As we are well aware, the majority of regulars in the conspiracy forum absolutely loathe conspiracies. They don't even want these conversations to happen and would much rather the whole forum be shut down to prevent the spread of "Dangerous misinformation!!" lest it be read by people who don't have the mental capacity to make up their own mind on the topic 🙄. It is from this cohort that the above argument is most prominent - not because it is a good argument but because it plants seeds of doubt in the reader. It presupposes that any such conspiracy would require a collaborated buy-in from such an unwieldly large organisation and that believing in such would be tantamount to believing in paranormal or fantastical, alien-like organisations like the Illuminati or "Lizard people" etc. "in this world of social media and all my hundreds of virtual friends I could not possibly be seen to believe in such silly things?" - Seed planted

2021-08-06 16_59_32-secrete society - Google Search.png

It is upon this precariously feeble argument that so many people lay their foundations of doubt. This should not be the case. There absolutely does not need to be a gargantuan collaborative effort of countless people to prop up a deception. We see it countless times from the government - many times this gets exposed but in all likelihood, secrets will remain safely behind closed doors. We don't even need any dark or ominous examples to explain this. Take the budget for example that gets released in October every year. Hundreds of people are currently working on this right now. It contains very sensitive information that affects countless numbers of Irish citizens, yet how does this information not get "exposed" or leaked? The reason is very simple, the vast majority of the people working on drafting the budget are not privy to all the information or the most sensitive parts and even if they were, they are either not aware of the sensitivity, could not care less or most importantly they value their jobs so would not dream of leaking such information.

Anyone who works/has worked in a large organisation is fully aware that not everyone in the company has access to all the information in the company database. Employees are sequestered into groups in which they only have access to chunks of information. This restricted access to information remains right up to the top of the chain. How is this any different to any other organisation that forms the basis of a conspiracy theory i.e. NASA. Freemasons, CIA/911 etc.?

The so called "debunkers" of the forum who believe in the above bolded line are the true conspiracy theorists. They believe the whole world is setup like an Edward Snowden or Julien Assange reality where someone with 100% certainty would blow the whistle if there was so much as a grain of dishonesty brewing within an organisation. This is truly a laughable, ridiculous standpoint to take.

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Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880461#Comment_118880461

Once again you completely missed the point. Given this, it’s pointless to continue.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881968#Comment_118881968

It's very simple - you made a comment more or less saying the FDA is an impenetrable body of oversight, which is absolutely not true. Now you are backtracking with double speak because the debate is getting too hot to handle for you.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882759#Comment_118882759

Lol. Nope. Do you think that anyone else believes that's what he's saying?

Also, again a bit weird for you to accuse someone of this given how you bravely announced how you were going to ignore critical questions and have been dodging pretty much any point made against you.

Complete, embarrassing hypocrisy here.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882778#Comment_118882778

Indeed.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118875054#Comment_118875054

The likelihood to hide research like this, subject to FDA oversights, peer reviews, and public reports is beyond my imagination

You said it right here. And when I highlighted the fact that this relies on companies being honest with the data they acquire and how they present it, you went on a tangent about a novelty statistics book. Not sure why you are talking as though you've demystified any chance of wrong-doing in the industry. Just because you say you worked in an FDA controlled research team doesn't give what you say more weight than everyone else.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891865#Comment_118891865

But we should believe you when you claim to have done work for companies and committed active fraud?

Why would we believe anything you say when you believe very silly stuff and have been caught out in lies before?

Markus Antonius

This has to be one of the most bizarre threads on boards. It proposes that a gargantuan secret can exist without requiring "thousands of people" to keep a secret. And yet the sceptics of the forum feel that this is not possible!

Yet another clear example in the media in the last two weeks with the RTE fiasco. Scandal after deception after lie after fraud coming out of the organisation. An organisation of Journalists!!!

So my question, how did all these hundreds of journalists manage to keep this secret for so many years?

😂

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819531#Comment_120819531

excuse me??

before all of this blew up, where did you post that you had a conspiracy that ryan tubridy was actually being paid more than was being declared?

or marty morrissey was driving a free car?

isnt there a very big element of "after timing" here now with you?

this is simply a case of a lack of proper oversight allowing craven people being very loose with public money. eventually it all comes out in the wash... as is happening

where is the conspiracy here?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819649#Comment_120819649

Why do you think it will always come out in the wash? Almost sounds biblical: "God will reveal all"

And also, I would like you to please clarify why one of the 100+ journalists did not blow the whistle from 2019-2022 where the scandal was successfully maintained?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819531#Comment_120819531

But your example contradicts your position.

We are now finding out about all of the financial irregularities at RTE.

They weren't able to keep their secret.

Yet you content that literally millions of people all over the world are able to maintain the conspiracy to fake all space flight and to convince people that the world is round.

The Nal

So there were too many people to keep it a secret at RTE.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821325#Comment_120821325

Any yet Markus is claiming that as something that proves the conceit of the thread and to declare us bizarre for not agreeing with it.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821325#Comment_120821325

No, it was an audit that revealed the deception. It could have been hidden away for far longer/indefinitely if the perps weren't so sloppy/greedy.

Do you believe the board of executives that only Dee Forbes would have known about all the details of Tubridy's top-up?

Always gets so quiet in the conspiracy forum when the skeptics step on a rake. It was the same with the blindingly obvious Covid Lab leak (which was so vehemently denied in this forum) was then accepted as most likely. 😂

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829035#Comment_120829035

The amount of waffle posted on these forums touted as "fact". Must be dozens of discredited conspiracy theories.

And you're still clinging on to one falsehood, the lab leak. The theory was that it was man made, on purpose, in a lab.

And no, I don't think Dee was the only one who knew. But there were clearly too many people to keep it a secret. Which is why it came out.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829049#Comment_120829049

You don't debunk any conspiracy theories. You have two tools in your arsenal:

CNN fact checker
Too many people would have to keep it a secret

You consider anything that doesn't pass either of the above tests as being "discredited". This thread very clearly delegitimizes Tool #2 (There is no known cure for Tool #1).

Using the skeptics own argument, surely everyone in RTE would have had to keep it a secret? Just like the thousands and thousands of scientists who would have had to keep the moonlanding conspiracy theory a secret 😂

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829035#Comment_120829035

So again, you are claiming that this somehow proves your insistence that all conspiracy theories can be true, but then point out that it was too big to be kept secret.

And again, you are proposing this in the context of your own claimed belief that all space travel is faked.

The people at RTE were too greedy trying to pocket a few million. And this was what exposed them.

Meanwhile millions of people are involved in the fake space industry, spending trillions over decades for literally no reason. And this to you is something that can be obviously kept secret.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829098#Comment_120829098

Yeah they were trying desperately to keep it a secret but allowed a financial audit team to come in

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829098#Comment_120829098

Again, you are exposing how your own argument fails.

RTE has a grand total of 1800.

The number of people who would need to be involved in your conspiracy theory about space travel would be in the millions, spaning many countries, agencies and companies.

You are contending that RTE was exposed because "they were too big".

This clearly does not make sense, hence why you aren't addressing it.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829120#Comment_120829120

Audits happen in every company, usually every year. Why didn't the 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 audits reveal the deception?

Still avoiding the question on why someone at some point didn't blow the whistle during this half a decade.

Hannibal_Smith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829139#Comment_120829139

That's the million dollar question and part of what the PAC are trying to get to the bottom of.

Are you saying it's not a conspiracy theory? Because I don't think anyone is maintaining that it is? Or are you saying the whole thing is fake?

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829139#Comment_120829139

because who pays the auditors?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829255#Comment_120829255

No, I'm saying deceptions can exist within organisations, which flies in the face of one of the sceptics most overused arguments i.e. too many people would have to keep it a secret.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829307#Comment_120829307

Mischaracterization on several levels.

First, you keep pretending that this is the only argument that is used against you and your fellow conspiracy theorists. This is false. We often point out when theories are flawed and nonsensical and where they rely on incorrect information. The fact that many conspiracy theories rely on huge amounts of people to work is usually just one of many many logical issues with them.

Secondly, you are trying to claim that skeptics (ie, people who don't believe your conspiracy theories) are arguing that deceptions can't exist in organisations. This is false. No one is arguing this.

Finally, your own personal conspiracy theories are perfect examples of ones that fall down because they require too many people to keep it a secret.

Not once have you ever attempted to address this issue.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829307#Comment_120829307

Deceptions can exist within organisations. But the rest of your post is illogical. How does that disprove "too many people would have to keep it secret"?

Your post is completely lacking in logic and evidence.

It was missed by earlier auditors because of how it was reported, and the amounts.

You're implying, completely without any evidence or justification, that the earlier auditors spotted it and knew what was going on and kept quiet.

What do you have to justify that? I'm guessing nothing?

Whereas what seems to have happened is that it come up on audit radar as it was over €100,000 when two payments were bundled together.

Tubridy received two payments of €75,000 each in 2022, totalling €150,000 (being a payment for 2021 and a payment for 2022). It was these payments that prompted the review by Grant Thornton in late March of this year.

https://www.thejournal.ie/external-investigation-potential-financial-issue-rte-6100006-Jun2023/#:~:text=In%20a%20statement%20released%20by,was%20understated%20publicly%20since%202017.

Hannibal_Smith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829307#Comment_120829307

It doesnt fly in the face of anything. Your RTE example can't be applied to conspiracy theories, because its not one. Deceptions can exist within organisations. You're making a giant leap trying to use it as blanket proof conspiracy theories aren't conspiracies.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829362#Comment_120829362

You're implying, completely without any evidence or justification, that the earlier auditors spotted it and knew what was going on and kept quiet.

I'm not implying this at all, that's ridiculous. Earlier auditors either weren't provided information relating to the barter account or were clearly willing to accept the spurious "Consultancy fee" transactions. There is no reason why they wouldn't have continued to accept this for years and years to come.

"knew what was going on and kept quiet" 🤣 This is just more of the simplistic and irrational perceptions you have of conspiracy theories

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829363#Comment_120829363

I never said it was a conspiracy theory. I said it was another example where a deception can exist within an organisation and remain uncovered due to the compartmentalisation that exists within companies.

The same compartmentalisation that exists in NASA, which allowed the moonlanding hoax survive for a year or so.

Hannibal_Smith

There are lots of examples of deception within companies. That's why audits are necessary. Surely you didn't need the current RTE revelations to tell you that? But applying that to conspiracy theories is trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

Hannibal_Smith

There is no reason why they wouldn't have continued to accept this for years and years to come.

But they didn't. It was exposed.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829416#Comment_120829416

A deception that existed because the sums were small. It wasn't because of compartmentalisation. A deception brought to light when auditors queried it... No reason to why they wouldn't have continued to accept it... Except they didn't. So you just disproved your own argument, as is often the case with these dubious claims.

But sure, pretend to yourself that NASA could run such great conspiracy on such a budget when it has been pointed out to you that too many people would have to KNOW. Actually have knowledge of the deception. Not merely smoke and mirrors with budgets and invoices.

This is an entirely different situation, and you know it.

Your claims are completely illogical and without evidence. They have no credibility. As credible as your claims about the moon landing and satellites not being real.

So yeah, too many people would have to KNOW and it is "simplistic and irrational" to propose that an organisation fiddling a small sum of its budget in any way disproves that with regard to the grand conspiracies you are trying to apply it to.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829498#Comment_120829498

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829537#Comment_120829537

Right, so there are currently zero deceptions going on that will not be revealed in due course 👍️

You can't be this naïve