Too many people would have to keep it a secret...

Markus Antonius

I've been presented with quite a number of peculiar and frankly bizarre arguments for why certain conspiracy theories simply could not be within the realms reality. One of the most regularly presented, which also so happens to be one of the most weak, pathetic and quite frankly - lazy arguments to say the least has to be:

"In order for XXX to happen, thousands of people would have to be in on the secret"

As we are well aware, the majority of regulars in the conspiracy forum absolutely loathe conspiracies. They don't even want these conversations to happen and would much rather the whole forum be shut down to prevent the spread of "Dangerous misinformation!!" lest it be read by people who don't have the mental capacity to make up their own mind on the topic 🙄. It is from this cohort that the above argument is most prominent - not because it is a good argument but because it plants seeds of doubt in the reader. It presupposes that any such conspiracy would require a collaborated buy-in from such an unwieldly large organisation and that believing in such would be tantamount to believing in paranormal or fantastical, alien-like organisations like the Illuminati or "Lizard people" etc. "in this world of social media and all my hundreds of virtual friends I could not possibly be seen to believe in such silly things?" - Seed planted

It is upon this precariously feeble argument that so many people lay their foundations of doubt. This should not be the case. There absolutely does not need to be a gargantuan collaborative effort of countless people to prop up a deception. We see it countless times from the government - many times this gets exposed but in all likelihood, secrets will remain safely behind closed doors. We don't even need any dark or ominous examples to explain this. Take the budget for example that gets released in October every year. Hundreds of people are currently working on this right now. It contains very sensitive information that affects countless numbers of Irish citizens, yet how does this information not get "exposed" or leaked? The reason is very simple, the vast majority of the people working on drafting the budget are not privy to all the information or the most sensitive parts and even if they were, they are either not aware of the sensitivity, could not care less or most importantly they value their jobs so would not dream of leaking such information.

Anyone who works/has worked in a large organisation is fully aware that not everyone in the company has access to all the information in the company database. Employees are sequestered into groups in which they only have access to chunks of information. This restricted access to information remains right up to the top of the chain. How is this any different to any other organisation that forms the basis of a conspiracy theory i.e. NASA. Freemasons, CIA/911 etc.?

The so called "debunkers" of the forum who believe in the above bolded line are the true conspiracy theorists. They believe the whole world is setup like an Edward Snowden or Julien Assange reality where someone with 100% certainty would blow the whistle if there was so much as a grain of dishonesty brewing within an organisation. This is truly a laughable, ridiculous standpoint to take.

timmyntc

Suppose 1 or more vaccines were deadly or whatever the theory is - all it would take to actually do that is a relatively small group of people (those working on vaccine R&D). Nobody in manufacturing would have any idea of what actually goes on - they just know the ingredients, not the finer details.

Neither would doctors or GPs know - or any hospital staff. They get given vaccines (or other drugs) and trust that they do and say whatever is on the tin.

Now I dont believe this is the case - just pointing out that the "thousands in on the secret" is a fallacious argument.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058202675/too-many-people-would-have-to-keep-it-a-secret

Of course you maintain that a huge number of people can keep a lie, you openly believe the entire space program is faked. Something that would involve millions of people perfectly keeping a secret across generations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058202675/too-many-people-would-have-to-keep-it-a-secret

What a bizarre rant full of inaccuracies.

Why are you claiming that anyone wants this forum shut down? No one claims this.

In reality we so called debunkers have spent a large portion of your threads trying and failing to get you to elaborate on your conspiracy theories. Yet you don't at all seem interested it talking about them. From your odd dismissive tone you seem to want to shut down any discuss that might cause people to doubt the conspiracies.

As for the topic, your argument is very weak and self debunking. You bring up Assange and Snowden who show how difficult it would be to maintain any large scale conspiracy.

Leaks happen all the time. And no matter how big or dark the secret is they always seem to get out and are exposed by actual journalists.

The problem you have is that you are assuming that all governments, media and experts are all working together as a single entity. But this is simply a childish conspiracy theory fantasy. In reality there are countless conflicting agendas between all of these and within these.

The other issue is one of practicality. For example in your head the entire space industry is faked. To maintain this lie conspirators would need to pay off or control millions of people around the world. They would have to pay people off enough so they aren't tempted to hand over any of the easily demonstrable evidence they'd have that the space program is fake for an even bigger pay day. And then they'd also have to keep the millions of astronomers, physicists and engineers who would all be able to easily point out how they are faking the space flights. This would add up to trillions of dollars just to keep people quiet never mind the fortune you'd have to put into the efforts to fake all space stuff.

And all for what benefit? You've run away from the other thread because you can't even imagine why they would spend all this time, effort and money to maintain this lie. It doesn't make sense why they would pay trillions to people to fake all space travel. Hence the number of people who would have to be involved shows how your conspiracy theory isn't true.

The reason you don't accept this is that you are desperate to explain why no one supports the bizarre conspiracy theories you believe. You can't explain why no one is leaking the truth about how all space travel is fake or why the world is actually flat. It can't be that your wrong, so it must be that everyone is involved in this conspiracy.

So I'm curious how you rationalize when leaks do happen. Like when the NSA phone tapping came out, do you believe this was a faked leak?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058202675/too-many-people-would-have-to-keep-it-a-secret

The problem for most conspiracy theorists is they don't have the courage of their convictions, they'll agree that something isn't right but can't agree with either themselves and others what that thing is and even a very low level of knowledge of the subject shows up huge gaps in their theory (one of which is usually thousands or millions of people needing to keep it a secret)

To take an example, in the space thread, I reduced it to a very simple ask to show an approximate image of what you think the earth looks like, we reduced your theory down to it's most base level to try and see if something could be built on it, but you ran away, went off on different rants, scoffed at others. Flat earth started off the same way as a way to try and debate something that's clearly nonsense and convince others, and it can work for a bit (I mean it all falls apart very quickly, but as a thought exercise it's interesting, it's also a pity that some people seem to have taken it seriously and wasted their lives on it).

Start with some basic principles and work from there, if you can show some evidence for the most basic point, then you have a discussion and theory, you can't start off with a "everything is a lie", you need to work to get there, sure it might only go 1 level deep, but at least it gets conversation going and challenges people's understanding of the world and how we interact with each other.

It looks like you've invested a significant amount of time into your beliefs (even though you won't share them) which can make you zealous when defending them (don't want to show them up as wasted time). Scientists are always prepared to be disproven, the hope is that new information comes to light that proves the impossible as it enhances our understanding of the universe, but similarly, it has to be based on facts and data and not just belief.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718054#Comment_117718054

Hundreds of millions believe a Palestinian called Jesus could walk on water, cure dreadful maladies, could get killed and then nrise from the dead. I'm sure there are millions who doubt this and question its veracity or even possibility. They speak out all the time. Are they listened to?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800075#Comment_117800075

Are all of those people in a position to know for a fact what Jesus didn't do those things? In many of the conspiracy theories you believe, people involved would have to know the truth and actively prop it up. For example, taking Marky's belief that all space programs are faked, everyone involved would have to know and be in on it. It wouldn't be a matter of belief. It would not be possible to be a trained engineer, knowingly working on a fake spaceship and believe that the spaceship is really going to space.

Your angry teenage atheist rant doesn't really apply here.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720186#Comment_117720186

Personally I'm not willing to entertain any thoughts about the Earth being flat or Moon Landings being staged or there being reptillian shapeshifters amongst us or abductions by extraterrestrials or any of that gibberish. But because I don't believe a paper passport can survive a fireball when the owner/jacket/bag of said passport was incinerated then I am lumped in with people who think the Moon is made of paper or that Hillary Clinton ran a paedophile pizza racket. Rather convenient, wouldn't you say. Why not just ignore those who espouse physical impossibilities and concentrate on those who express questions about what is actually POSSIBLE in the real world?

There's always the "someone would have spoken out" canard. Who spoke out when the Guildford Four lay rotting in prison as a result of a conspiracy? Or the Birmingham Six? So many knew that it was a stictch up. How many knew about the Hillsbourough disaster was a coverup and kept their mouths shut? Or Bloddy Sunday? And those who did speak out under threat of death weren't even entertained...and certainly not believed by those who don't like to hear uncomfortable truths. Is it possible that the Earth is flat? NO! Is it possible that little Anne Frank was the only one who knew that Jews would be sent to the gaschambers....again NO.

Is it possible that these horrors were allowed to happen by the powers that be for the purposes of expediency? Absolutely YES.

So, at risk of someone chiming in with the Godwin's Law trope....2 TRILLION has been spent on the debacle in Afghanistan. 30% of that has disappeared into the pockets and bank accounts of warlords, contractors, and bottom feeders who got a few million for selling boxer shorts to Army personnel at a 100 bucks a pair, all on the taxpayer's dime. This was all known. Another conspiracy. Invade a country, fleece out what you can, leave the locals crying at the airport and split. Now if that isn't a conspiracy then I don't know what is.

But if you mention any of this then you believe that the Earth is flat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800137#Comment_117800137

Yes, you are lumped in with those people because what your claiming is equally as silly.

You are suggesting that 9/11 was faked and in the process of this the conspirators faked one of the terrorists passports despite knowing it was impossible and despite it being an obvious give away. That's as silly as what moon landing hoax believers claim.

Likewise, when you're asked to explain this detail in the context of a conspiracy, or when it's shown that other items did survive the plane crashes, or when you're shown other examples of passports surviving other crashes, you ignore and run away and pretend those issues don't exist. That's the same tactic other conspiracy theorists use when they don't want to acknowledge the same issues in their beliefs.

And this is before we look into what you believe actually happened on 9/11. Silent Thermite Explosives? Space based directed energy weapons? Holographic planes? Mini Nukes? All of these options are equally as silly as Pizzagate.

I'm sure there's believers in those things who likewise dismiss your prefered conspiracy theories as impossible and ridiculous.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800149#Comment_117800149

No, No, No...you're not get off that easily.

You have just accused me of stating that something was faked. I didn't even have to finish reading what you wrote.

That accusation came in the second sentence. I am lumped in with whom and for what? I'm not sure if you have children but would you lump them in with morons who believe the Earth is flat merely because they questioned a man flying through the sky on the 25th of December and squeezing down a chimney, even though you house mightn't have a fireplace?

You lump me, and my ilk into the realms of nutcases for one reason and one reason only. That reason is that you are entirely uninterested in a discussion. It's a tactic to shut down a discussion. And it's a very effective, remarkably effective tool. To the point of brilliance in all its cynicism.

I express doubt about something the government said or did. You slam the door on me, labelling me a believer in Atlantis or some such nonsense.

I question the need for people to be stopped and searched willy-nilly. You paint me as a terrorist sympathiser.

I express trepidation about Israel not exactly playing by the rules. You call me an anti-Semite.

I bring attention to the very fact that the US has destroyed millions of lives. You call me an "America-hater"

You lump me in to a category for one reason and one reason only, and that reason is that you can't step beck and see what is right and what is wrong...or maybe you can but you are now just too invested in your beliefs that you can't bring yourself to contemplate another thought process.

So lump me into your categories regarding rubbish like the Bermuda Triangle or alien abductions just to stop me questioning something that doesn't sit right with you.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800149#Comment_117800149

I don't believe in any of that HAARP nonsense that you are bringing up so why are you doing it? Is it another attempt to shut me down?

What is your game here? Make me look like a nut? It's very simple. Stop bringing up idiotic theories like the Earth is flat or that the Moon is a massive celestial monitoring station that controls us all, and we might get somewhere.

Would you like to do that or not? If not then just say so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800199#Comment_117800199

You are now whinging about me misattributing things to you, then go off on a rant accusing me of calling you things I never did.

This is hypocritical and very funny.

What I did was point out that your belief that the conspirators behind 9/11 faked a passport in a very silly way is equally as silly as the stuff other conspiracy theorists claim about things you dismiss out of hand.

Likewise when ever you've been asked to explain this belief of yours, or you've been presented evidence against it, you react the same as those believers. You ignore and dodge and get upset. You never actually address any of these issues.

And as I said, there's many believers in those things, who would describe your beliefs as ridiculous and silly and giving real conspiracy theorists a bad name.

This isn't an attempt to shut discussion down. You're more than free to show that your beliefs are different. If they are different you'd have no trouble explaining it and answering questions. There'd be no reason to dodge and ignore and whinge.

The only reason it "shuts discussion down" is because conspiracy theorists like yourself don't want to question their beliefs.

Also not sure why you bring up HAARP. I didn't bring that up.

Do you believe that the buildings were demolished by some kind of high tech super thermite?

If so, what's the difference between that and other other, equally as silly conspiracy theories of how the buildings came down?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800137#Comment_117800137

Your thought processes are the same

People who maintain that the world is flat can't believe they are on a ball spinning at 1000 mph, so they have decided it's not true. Likewise some individuals can't believe 1960's technology took man to the moon, so they claim it didn't happen. You can't believe that passports and perishable items survived certain plane impacts, so according to you it didn't happen. You think the same way they do.

Passports and identity cards and other items from people on those flights physically exist, some are sitting in museums. You have no explanation for that, you don't even try. You don't have any counter-theory. Your entire view is predicted on your subjective view that you can't believe it, therefore it didn't happen. Just like flat-earthers and moon landing hoaxers.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800767#Comment_117800767

Our thought processes are most certainly NOT the same. You have decided that they are simply to lump skeptics in with lunatics.

I doubted the stupid narrative that Venezuelans were so malnourished that they had to eat flamingoes to survive. It's quite frankly an insult to the intelligence of anyone with an IQ above room temperature. That kind of skepticism cannot in anyway or by any stretch be classed as the same thought process in believing that the Earth is flat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802653#Comment_117802653

But again you believe that there was a massive global conspiracy behind 9/11 and that conspiracy for some reason planted an obviously fake passport and a bunch of obviously fake random items from one of the planes as well as planted equally fake items in every plane crash in history so as to have one of their supposed terrorists passports found.

This is a very silly thing to believe.

Why do you believe that its different from anything flat earthers or moon hoaxers believe?

Why do you keep running away from this issue if your beliefs are completely logic and true?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802653#Comment_117802653

You didn't refute anything I wrote. Your thought processes expressed in your comments here are, by definition and repeated example, the same as conspiracy theorists. You think that because you can't believe something, it didn't happen.

It's been explained to you countless times, so it's pretty clear you don't even understand the concept to begin with. You literally think events in the world revolve around whether you, personally, believe them or not.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802881#Comment_117802881

I don't believe that anything was a massive global conspiracy. These are your words, not mine. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of things I have not maintained.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804255#Comment_117804255

But you've been asked many many times to outline your beliefs, but each time you refuse. You ignore and you run away. You never seem to be able to explain what you believe.

You also don't seem to understand the contradictions what you do claim to believe.

You've made vague claims about a passport surviving the plane crash. OK. So let's clarify what you believe.do you believe this passport is faked and planted by the real people behind the conspiracy? Yes or no?

Now like flat earthers and moon hoax believers you will most likely not be able to answer this straight forward yes or no question about your beliefs, so you will ignore it. Ignoring this simple question will demonstrate our point.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802974#Comment_117802974

I don't have to refute anything that you say or proffer. My doubts about something are not going to be smashed into my head purely because you think otherwise.

You have posited the theory that ....let's use the passport example shall we.. that X event happened (or so it was so reported) and the outcome was Y.

This is your admitted logic, your own admission. Coupled with that, you maintained that if someone expresses doubt or diseleif at X then they are to be dismissed, purely because of Y. To simplify, a paper passport was found. It survived a fireball, and was turned in. It happened to be the passport of a Saudi hijacker.

So far you are au fait with this narrative. Not only than but your rationales is that this passport exists so all doubt about how it came to be must be extinguished.

Your conjecture is that as long as it exists then the manner in how it came into being is unquestionable.

Does that line of thinking extend universally or just to certain circumstances? If we were to extend your logic a little further outwards then it becomes a tad flawed.

A paper passport is found in the rubble of the WTC imbroglio. It exists, ergo how it got there is indisputable [Your logic]

A doll exists by a fire-place on December 25th. The narrative is that a guy flew across the sky, came down the chimney and left it there. The child doubts this story but again by your logic .. "the doll exists. It's right there. How else can you explain its existence?"

Again tou use your logic (i.e. something exists, hence the story as to how it got there must be believed, or according to you it never happened because one doesn't believe it.)

You are trying to lump me in with those who believe in the supernatural.

I'll hammer this point....you think that the existence of something vindicates the explanation as to why and how it came into existence. By your own admission you state that a coin left under a pillow is proof that a fairy came and replaced a tooth with a coin. After all, the coin is there so how else could things have transpired?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804325#Comment_117804325

Ok. So what's your explanation for the passport? How do you believe it got there?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804325#Comment_117804325

Multiple passports, identity cards, tickets, even paper itineraries survived the impacts. Some of which are on display in the 9/11 museum. That answers it for you..

The fact that this stuff survived, at the impact sites, demonstrates that perishable stuff did survive the plane impacts.

Yet you claim it's impossible for these kind of things to have survived, so how did this stuff survive? If you can't address this your argument is complete and utter nonsense

irelandrover

Aren't there leaks about the budget every year?

Even if there wasn't that secret only needs to be kept by people for a few months because it is then released to the public. And it is not needed that unhappy staff that leave also keep the secrets.

storker

The intelligence agencies are said to have a rule of thumb that the percentage chance of a secret being leaked is the square of the number of people who are in on it. Once you reach 6 your secret is already in big trouble... 😀

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804881#Comment_117804881

It doesn't matter if a secret is leaked because you will always have gullible fools who will point fingers and shout "conspiracy theorist" at anyone who wants to discuss such a secret. They will make any such discussion thread unbearable to the point that anyone potentially "in on a secret" will give up trying to have a discussion about it. The CIA/FBI/NASA etc. know this - they have goons all over the world infatuated by their shiny fake pictures and who will defend them to the bitter end despite the overwhelming evidence.

They think governments always tell the truth (despite there being countless examples of how this is absolutely not true) and they go along with what the crowd thinks and what mainstream media thinks because it gives them a sense of commeradery and an "us vs them" situation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806547#Comment_117806547

And again, you are the perfect example of the absurdity of conspiracy theories. You believe the space program is faked.

This necessarily requires millions of people of being in on the scam. It's literally impossible, yet you seem to still believe this.

Your theory is the exact type that Alan was whinging about a few posts ago.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806547#Comment_117806547

The usual conspiracy "you are all sheep" spiel

There are leaks all the time; memo's, dossiers, officials leave sensitive documents on trains, whistle-blowers, insiders, politicians who anonymously leak to the press, investigative reporters, regulators, watchdogs, etc, etc

But in conspiracy theory land information is magically watertight. That's because you have irrational beliefs (e.g. "the space program is fake") which requires millions of people keeping giant nonsensical secrets, and requires you to pathologically lie and evade questions to support. And then, without the slightest hint of irony, you are soapbox about the "truth".

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806547#Comment_117806547

That's where you're wrong. Leaks come from the inside, but conspiracy theorists are working very much from the outside, and their "evidence" shows it. Where is the leaked information from NASA that proves the faked moon landings? Which member of the 9/11 conspiracy spilled the beans? What was the nature of the revelations and what was their role in the conspiracy? That's what leaked information looks like. All I've ever seen put forward to promote conspiracy theories is a lot of innuendo, combined with bad science and maths and a lot of outright falsehoods. If there is evidence from actual leaked information, I've yet to see it presented.

You appear to have a very strange idea of what gullible means.

Note to Mods: It might be interesting to have a thread devoted to bona fide leaked evidence. I suspect one thread would cover all the conspiracies pretty easily. 😉

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807008#Comment_117807008

Just to preempt the types of responses you'll get

"Operation Northwoods, gulf of Tonkien, etc" = conspiracies happened, therefore conspiracies are happening now

"Some stuff was kept secret in the past, therefore it's easy to keep anything secret no matter how many are involved"

"Can't prove to me that the conspiracy isn't true"

"I am special, you are all sheep"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807100#Comment_117807100

Ironically, a lot of the events that conspiracy theorists like to point out as "real conspiracy theories" tend to be revealed specifically by leaks and whistleblowers. Or like in the case of Operation Northwoods, it was exposed because the documents were declassified and released by the mainstream media.

Never are the "real conspiracy theories" revealed by internet detectives using clues that are supposedly obvious.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807008#Comment_117807008

There are many great posts within the conspiracy forum with plenty of evidence supporting a wide array of conspiracy theories. Unfortunately all those posts have been buried down a hole in threads that have been spammed, derailed, stifled, diluted in any way possible by those who simply despise conspiracy theories. It won't be long before this thread also falls victim to such tiresome tactics.

Also a few years back, there were mods who also fell into this category who would ban people and close any thread that didn't fit their agenda. Thankfully they have moved on and it may allow some frank and interesting discussion to continue again.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807278#Comment_117807278

None of this addresses anything that I said.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807278#Comment_117807278

You made an extraordinary conspiracy claim then dodged every question on it. Now you are playing the victim card and ranting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807278#Comment_117807278

I assume you meant that posts like:

"What do you believe and why do you believe it?"

Or

"This claim you made is demonstrably false."

...are spam and stifling.

Yet posts that are just empty link dumps and tactics such as lying and ignoring are totally fine.

You have a very backwards idea there.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807489#Comment_117807489

I'm not posting anything relating to any topic for the very reason that it will attract a mob of so called "debunkers" who will make the thread so unwieldy and unattractive to read that nobody will come back.

Secondly, you don't come across as sincere and genuinely interested in learning of real conspiracies. You come across as someone who just wants confirm their own mainstream opinion to give yourself a sense of place and validation amongst peers.

Tell me if I'm wrong and I'll happily point you in the direction of lots of interesting material. Otherwise, you can take your position as just another conspiracy hating "debunker" of the soulless conspiracy forum.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808923#Comment_117808923

Lol again your are whinging in a very hypocritical way.

How does asking you to explain your beliefs make threads unpleasent?

How does pointing out where you guys say things that aren't true make the thread unwieldy?

How does constantly ignoring these things do the opposite?

If you and your fellow conspiracy theorists just addressed points directly and honestly you'd probably be having a better time. Though you probably start thinking about your conspiracy theories a bit too much.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808923#Comment_117808923

No. You could go to any forum and if you brought up your claim that the space program is fake you'd get questions from everyone. Your belief is a lie, you know it, and that's why you deliberately dodge questions on it. It's a hobby that requires an extreme level of dishonesty.

storker

This is truly pitiful stuff. In less than two pages you've gone from appearing to open a discussion about whether or not the number of people required to be involved in a conspiracy should be a factor in assessing its credibility, to "allow me to educate you or else you're just a debunker/member of the sheeple".

@Markus Antonius : "I'm not posting anything relating to any topic for the very reason that it will attract a mob of so called "debunkers"

Quite. That's how discussions are supposed to work. Have you considered the possibility that the problem is not the "debunkers", but is actually with the quality of the "evidence" that conspiracy theorists put forward? In my experience such evidence is nowhere near as conclusive as they like to think. Perhaps if they subjected their own evidence to some truly rigorous analysis they might see the flaws in it, but unfortunately they limit their intellectual exertions to - ironically - insulting the intelligence of the less-credulous, dropping the pretence of rational argument and going straight to ad hominem.

Imagine if a scientist claimed to have discovered a design for a perpetual motion machine, but he wasn't prepared to submit a paper for peer review because other scientists would only try to pick holes it it (which is how scientific peer review works). Such an individual's claims would (deservedly) have no credibility.

It seems that what you're really looking is an echo chamber, a conspiracy theories forum in which questioning the claims is prohibited by the forum's charter. I'm sure that could be set up for you if you asked.

@Markus Antonius : "Secondly, you don't come across as sincere and genuinely interested in learning of real conspiracies. You come across as someone who just wants confirm their own mainstream opinion to give yourself a sense of place and validation amongst peers."

The sheeple argument again, but using different words. Thanks for the free shoot-from-the-hip psychoanalysis (complete with the level of accuracy you'd expect from that type of aim), but my sense of "place and validation" is not dependent on what I imagine are other people's perceptions of me on any form of social media. I'm not interested in conspiracy for their own sake - you're right about that; what I'm interested in is the truth. I don't mind what it is; when the facts change I change my mind, but that requires real evidence and not just the collection of innuendo, bad maths, bad science and fallacious reasoning that tend to be presented by conspiracy theorists. If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you try arguing seriously.

@Markus Antonius : "Tell me if I'm wrong and I'll happily point you in the direction of lots of interesting material. Otherwise, you can take your position as just another conspiracy hating "debunker" of the soulless conspiracy forum."

You're wrong. But I don't want to be pointed in the "direction of lots of interesting material", I've followed enough of those evidential rabbit holes to be sufficiently sure that there's nothing at the bottom that's of any real use. I'll define my own position thanks, which actually varies depending on the subject, because critical thinking involves a bit more than just gainsaying the official version of events on the basis of flimsy evidence.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117811803#Comment_117811803

Why are you here?

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812306#Comment_117812306

Is your question a tacit admission that you believe truly critical thinking has no place in a forum that discusses conspiracy theories?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812349#Comment_117812349

What are you talking about? Did you come to the conspiracy forum looking to test your level of wit or something? Why dont you do that in any of the other forums? I have no interest in engaging with you on any topic.

In all likelihood if you did what you are doing here in any other forum, you'd be banned. Simple as that. But because the conspiracy forum is seen as some kind of "alt-right extremist" "neo-nazi" "antisemite" central hub by thought-policemen like you, it is allowed to go on and so has been rendered an unusable and uninteresting bore-fest that nobody wants to post in.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812771#Comment_117812771

Go into the threads you believe the conspiracies in and start off with the very basics of what the conspiracy is and go from there. You are starting off with "space is fake" but not explaining why you think it's fake or what the simple truth of it is. Start with a small kernel of truth, don't over-reach and build from there. Lashing out and calling people sheep does not make your theories more convincing.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812771#Comment_117812771

And like clockwork there's the tantrum.

storker

@Markus Antonius "Why dont you do that in any of the other forums? I have no interest in engaging with you on any topic."

Well that's my sleep ruined for tonight.

@Markus Antonius "In all likelihood if you did what you are doing here in any other forum, you'd be banned. Simple as that. But because the conspiracy forum is seen as some kind of "alt-right extremist" "neo-nazi" "antisemite" central hub by thought-policemen like you."

Outline the behaviour I've engaged in that would get me banned in any other forums. Quotes and examples, please, not vague handwaves.

@Markus Antonius "It is allowed to go on and so has been rendered an unusable and uninteresting bore-fest that nobody wants to post in."

I's say that's more to do with making exaggerating false claims for, at best, flimsy evidence, incontinent link-dumping, hopping from point to point and a general ducking and diving when challenged, denial of science and general bad logic that underlines the pointlessness of debating with conspiracy theory fanboys. It's as much a waste of time as trying to debate with a drunk. As the saying goes, "You can't use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't use logic to argue themselves into".

Of course you won't be answering this, so I'll just wish you the best of luck with your echo chamber. I'm sure you'll have a fine old time.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813347#Comment_117813347

What do you think would happen if I went to the Astronomy/Astrophysics forum and started posting in every thread asking questions such as "What proof do you have that we've been to space? What flimsy evidence do you have that SpaceX launches rockets every month?"

What do you think would happen if I went to the farming forum and started posting in every thread accusing the farmers of "denying science" and they should quit farming because it's bad for the environment?

What do you think would happen if I went to the coronavirus forum and posted in every thread saying covid19 is fake and you have no proof that it is real?

I would be banned and rightfully so. Why? Because I would be stifling the discussion with post after post of off topic and contrarian questions killing any momentum of interesting discussion that people would want to read.

How is that any different to what you and your fellow "debunkers" do in the conspiracy forum? For as long as the internet is a thing and even long before people have been interested in discussing conspiracy theories. The developers of Boards recognised this years ago so they created a forum that would allow discussion of the range of conspiracy theories there are out there. It was intended to work like any other forum - if you are interested in a thread, you click on it and read/join the discussion. If you are not interested in it, you don't click on it.

But for the last 10 years the conspiracy forum on boards has been a cesspit of derailed junk debates at the hands of virtuous knights in shining armor, with an unhealthy obsession and dedication to encumber every thread in the name of social justice and righteousness to a nauseating level and have thus turned the conspiracy forum into a ghost town that nobody is interested in posting in. And when called out on this you justify it with ridiculous lines like "misinformation is dangerous to society" "Conspiracy theories are anti-science" "believing in conspiracies causes mass shootings". A truly laughable attitude, as the very people you feel are "dangerous" you've now forced out of a public forum where we would see in broad daylight the types of things that people can believe in. Sunlight is the best disinfectant as they say and you and your fellow debunkers have pushed them underground.

Job well done lads.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813447#Comment_117813447

So you want a forum where conspiracy theories are not allowed to be questioned or doubted.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813505#Comment_117813505

That's it in a a nutshell. At appears that the poster doesn't want Conspiracy Theories discussion forum, he wants a "Conspiracy Theories Tut-Tutting" or "Conspiracy Theories Outrage" forum, where the truth of any conspiracy theory is taken for granted and any discussion happens within the boundaries of that premise. This has all the appearance of a sulk by someone who has been proved wrong but can't handle it, and instead of some possible worthwhile self-examination, prefers to engage in name-calling.

Personally I think the CT forum has done a good job in exposing the nonsensical arguments and half-baked (at best!) evidence that the CT fanboys offer up as conclusive proof - not to mention the outright lies. I don't take any credit for that because I'm here too infrequently and to be honest, I don't know how you guys do it. You probably should be doing something more productive with your time instead of banging your heads off this particular wall. 😀

One of the things is notice is that people are ok with conspiracies related to the past. In the first Afghan war from 1839-1842 the consensus now is that build up to war was manufactured by hawks who feared Russia. The historian William Dalrymple says the war

was based on intelligence about a virtually non-existent threat: information about a single Russian envoy to Kabul was exaggerated and manipulated by a group of ambitious and ideologically-driven hawks to create a scare — in this case, about a phantom Russian invasion. As John MacNeill, the Russophobe British ambassador wrote from Tehran: “we should declare that he who is not with us is against us… We must secure Afghanistan.”

This is a conspiracy theory but nobody disregards it on that basis. It’s generally assumed to be true.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813447#Comment_117813447

I'm not even going to address those weak analogies, the problems with them should be obvious to anyone capable of...oh, never mind.

If you have a problem with the way discussions about your claims, or others that you support, have gone, then maybe you should look at the arguments and evidence presented by you and your fellow-travellers and instead of crying foul. Seriously, how old are you?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814179#Comment_117814179

That's the thing though, it's not even that. Conspiracy theorists have shown that they aren't actually interested in discussing conspiracy theories at all.

They aren't interested indiscussing conspiracy theories beyond the ones they personally buy into, and all others are dismissed as obviously silly and idiotic. We see it all the time when conspiracy theorists whinge about being compared to other conspiracy theorists.

And they aren't at all interested in people asking them anything about their own conspiracy. How many times have we heard "Do your own research" etc etc?

What conspiracy theorists want is a place to dump links they find from the various twitter/bitchute/parler cranks they follow and not have them questioned or doubted.

Marky made an OP and in the first few posts he was provided with detailed and thought out answers to his points. His response? Throw a tantrum and declare he is not going to answer any questions. All he wanted was to have a nice rant about how stupid everyone else is. We ruined that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814225#Comment_117814225

That’s not much of an argument. Obviously sometimes there are conspiracies that are more likely than others. Therefore somebody can legitimately say “I believe this but I don’t believe that”.

sheesh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800075#Comment_117800075

most people who believe in jesus got that belief from their parents and community so that is not an appropriate comparison