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Too many people would have to keep it a secret...

  • 06-08-2021 3:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭ Markus Antonius


    I've been presented with quite a number of peculiar and frankly bizarre arguments for why certain conspiracy theories simply could not be within the realms reality. One of the most regularly presented, which also so happens to be one of the most weak, pathetic and quite frankly - lazy arguments to say the least has to be:

    "In order for XXX to happen, thousands of people would have to be in on the secret"

    As we are well aware, the majority of regulars in the conspiracy forum absolutely loathe conspiracies. They don't even want these conversations to happen and would much rather the whole forum be shut down to prevent the spread of "Dangerous misinformation!!" lest it be read by people who don't have the mental capacity to make up their own mind on the topic 🙄. It is from this cohort that the above argument is most prominent - not because it is a good argument but because it plants seeds of doubt in the reader. It presupposes that any such conspiracy would require a collaborated buy-in from such an unwieldly large organisation and that believing in such would be tantamount to believing in paranormal or fantastical, alien-like organisations like the Illuminati or "Lizard people" etc. "in this world of social media and all my hundreds of virtual friends I could not possibly be seen to believe in such silly things?" - Seed planted



    It is upon this precariously feeble argument that so many people lay their foundations of doubt. This should not be the case. There absolutely does not need to be a gargantuan collaborative effort of countless people to prop up a deception. We see it countless times from the government - many times this gets exposed but in all likelihood, secrets will remain safely behind closed doors. We don't even need any dark or ominous examples to explain this. Take the budget for example that gets released in October every year. Hundreds of people are currently working on this right now. It contains very sensitive information that affects countless numbers of Irish citizens, yet how does this information not get "exposed" or leaked? The reason is very simple, the vast majority of the people working on drafting the budget are not privy to all the information or the most sensitive parts and even if they were, they are either not aware of the sensitivity, could not care less or most importantly they value their jobs so would not dream of leaking such information.

    Anyone who works/has worked in a large organisation is fully aware that not everyone in the company has access to all the information in the company database. Employees are sequestered into groups in which they only have access to chunks of information. This restricted access to information remains right up to the top of the chain. How is this any different to any other organisation that forms the basis of a conspiracy theory i.e. NASA. Freemasons, CIA/911 etc.?

    The so called "debunkers" of the forum who believe in the above bolded line are the true conspiracy theorists. They believe the whole world is setup like an Edward Snowden or Julien Assange reality where someone with 100% certainty would blow the whistle if there was so much as a grain of dishonesty brewing within an organisation. This is truly a laughable, ridiculous standpoint to take.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,066 ✭✭✭ timmyntc


    Suppose 1 or more vaccines were deadly or whatever the theory is - all it would take to actually do that is a relatively small group of people (those working on vaccine R&D). Nobody in manufacturing would have any idea of what actually goes on - they just know the ingredients, not the finer details.

    Neither would doctors or GPs know - or any hospital staff. They get given vaccines (or other drugs) and trust that they do and say whatever is on the tin.

    Now I dont believe this is the case - just pointing out that the "thousands in on the secret" is a fallacious argument.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan



    Hundreds of millions believe a Palestinian called Jesus could walk on water, cure dreadful maladies, could get killed and then nrise from the dead. I'm sure there are millions who doubt this and question its veracity or even possibility. They speak out all the time. Are they listened to?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Are all of those people in a position to know for a fact what Jesus didn't do those things? In many of the conspiracy theories you believe, people involved would have to know the truth and actively prop it up. For example, taking Marky's belief that all space programs are faked, everyone involved would have to know and be in on it. It wouldn't be a matter of belief. It would not be possible to be a trained engineer, knowingly working on a fake spaceship and believe that the spaceship is really going to space.

    Your angry teenage atheist rant doesn't really apply here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan



    Personally I'm not willing to entertain any thoughts about the Earth being flat or Moon Landings being staged or there being reptillian shapeshifters amongst us or abductions by extraterrestrials or any of that gibberish. But because I don't believe a paper passport can survive a fireball when the owner/jacket/bag of said passport was incinerated then I am lumped in with people who think the Moon is made of paper or that Hillary Clinton ran a paedophile pizza racket. Rather convenient, wouldn't you say. Why not just ignore those who espouse physical impossibilities and concentrate on those who express questions about what is actually POSSIBLE in the real world?

    There's always the "someone would have spoken out" canard. Who spoke out when the Guildford Four lay rotting in prison as a result of a conspiracy? Or the Birmingham Six? So many knew that it was a stictch up. How many knew about the Hillsbourough disaster was a coverup and kept their mouths shut? Or Bloddy Sunday? And those who did speak out under threat of death weren't even entertained...and certainly not believed by those who don't like to hear uncomfortable truths. Is it possible that the Earth is flat? NO! Is it possible that little Anne Frank was the only one who knew that Jews would be sent to the gaschambers....again NO.

    Is it possible that these horrors were allowed to happen by the powers that be for the purposes of expediency? Absolutely YES.

    So, at risk of someone chiming in with the Godwin's Law trope....2 TRILLION has been spent on the debacle in Afghanistan. 30% of that has disappeared into the pockets and bank accounts of warlords, contractors, and bottom feeders who got a few million for selling boxer shorts to Army personnel at a 100 bucks a pair, all on the taxpayer's dime. This was all known. Another conspiracy. Invade a country, fleece out what you can, leave the locals crying at the airport and split. Now if that isn't a conspiracy then I don't know what is.

    But if you mention any of this then you believe that the Earth is flat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan



    No, No, No...you're not get off that easily.

    You have just accused me of stating that something was faked. I didn't even have to finish reading what you wrote.

    That accusation came in the second sentence. I am lumped in with whom and for what? I'm not sure if you have children but would you lump them in with morons who believe the Earth is flat merely because they questioned a man flying through the sky on the 25th of December and squeezing down a chimney, even though you house mightn't have a fireplace?

    You lump me, and my ilk into the realms of nutcases for one reason and one reason only. That reason is that you are entirely uninterested in a discussion. It's a tactic to shut down a discussion. And it's a very effective, remarkably effective tool. To the point of brilliance in all its cynicism.

    I express doubt about something the government said or did. You slam the door on me, labelling me a believer in Atlantis or some such nonsense.

    I question the need for people to be stopped and searched willy-nilly. You paint me as a terrorist sympathiser.

    I express trepidation about Israel not exactly playing by the rules. You call me an anti-Semite.

    I bring attention to the very fact that the US has destroyed millions of lives. You call me an "America-hater"


    You lump me in to a category for one reason and one reason only, and that reason is that you can't step beck and see what is right and what is wrong...or maybe you can but you are now just too invested in your beliefs that you can't bring yourself to contemplate another thought process.

    So lump me into your categories regarding rubbish like the Bermuda Triangle or alien abductions just to stop me questioning something that doesn't sit right with you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan



    I don't believe in any of that HAARP nonsense that you are bringing up so why are you doing it? Is it another attempt to shut me down?

    What is your game here? Make me look like a nut? It's very simple. Stop bringing up idiotic theories like the Earth is flat or that the Moon is a massive celestial monitoring station that controls us all, and we might get somewhere.


    Would you like to do that or not? If not then just say so.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    You are now whinging about me misattributing things to you, then go off on a rant accusing me of calling you things I never did.

    This is hypocritical and very funny.


    What I did was point out that your belief that the conspirators behind 9/11 faked a passport in a very silly way is equally as silly as the stuff other conspiracy theorists claim about things you dismiss out of hand.

    Likewise when ever you've been asked to explain this belief of yours, or you've been presented evidence against it, you react the same as those believers. You ignore and dodge and get upset. You never actually address any of these issues.

    And as I said, there's many believers in those things, who would describe your beliefs as ridiculous and silly and giving real conspiracy theorists a bad name.

    This isn't an attempt to shut discussion down. You're more than free to show that your beliefs are different. If they are different you'd have no trouble explaining it and answering questions. There'd be no reason to dodge and ignore and whinge.

    The only reason it "shuts discussion down" is because conspiracy theorists like yourself don't want to question their beliefs.


    Also not sure why you bring up HAARP. I didn't bring that up.


    Do you believe that the buildings were demolished by some kind of high tech super thermite?

    If so, what's the difference between that and other other, equally as silly conspiracy theories of how the buildings came down?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan


    Our thought processes are most certainly NOT the same. You have decided that they are simply to lump skeptics in with lunatics.

    I doubted the stupid narrative that Venezuelans were so malnourished that they had to eat flamingoes to survive. It's quite frankly an insult to the intelligence of anyone with an IQ above room temperature. That kind of skepticism cannot in anyway or by any stretch be classed as the same thought process in believing that the Earth is flat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    But again you believe that there was a massive global conspiracy behind 9/11 and that conspiracy for some reason planted an obviously fake passport and a bunch of obviously fake random items from one of the planes as well as planted equally fake items in every plane crash in history so as to have one of their supposed terrorists passports found.


    This is a very silly thing to believe.

    Why do you believe that its different from anything flat earthers or moon hoaxers believe?

    Why do you keep running away from this issue if your beliefs are completely logic and true?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,248 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    You didn't refute anything I wrote. Your thought processes expressed in your comments here are, by definition and repeated example, the same as conspiracy theorists. You think that because you can't believe something, it didn't happen.

    It's been explained to you countless times, so it's pretty clear you don't even understand the concept to begin with. You literally think events in the world revolve around whether you, personally, believe them or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan



    I don't believe that anything was a massive global conspiracy. These are your words, not mine. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of things I have not maintained.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    But you've been asked many many times to outline your beliefs, but each time you refuse. You ignore and you run away. You never seem to be able to explain what you believe.

    You also don't seem to understand the contradictions what you do claim to believe.

    You've made vague claims about a passport surviving the plane crash. OK. So let's clarify what you believe.do you believe this passport is faked and planted by the real people behind the conspiracy? Yes or no?


    Now like flat earthers and moon hoax believers you will most likely not be able to answer this straight forward yes or no question about your beliefs, so you will ignore it. Ignoring this simple question will demonstrate our point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan



    I don't have to refute anything that you say or proffer. My doubts about something are not going to be smashed into my head purely because you think otherwise.


    You have posited the theory that ....let's use the passport example shall we.. that X event happened (or so it was so reported) and the outcome was Y.

    This is your admitted logic, your own admission. Coupled with that, you maintained that if someone expresses doubt or diseleif at X then they are to be dismissed, purely because of Y. To simplify, a paper passport was found. It survived a fireball, and was turned in. It happened to be the passport of a Saudi hijacker.

    So far you are au fait with this narrative. Not only than but your rationales is that this passport exists so all doubt about how it came to be must be extinguished.

    Your conjecture is that as long as it exists then the manner in how it came into being is unquestionable.

    Does that line of thinking extend universally or just to certain circumstances? If we were to extend your logic a little further outwards then it becomes a tad flawed.

    A paper passport is found in the rubble of the WTC imbroglio. It exists, ergo how it got there is indisputable [Your logic]

    A doll exists by a fire-place on December 25th. The narrative is that a guy flew across the sky, came down the chimney and left it there. The child doubts this story but again by your logic .. "the doll exists. It's right there. How else can you explain its existence?"

    Again tou use your logic (i.e. something exists, hence the story as to how it got there must be believed, or according to you it never happened because one doesn't believe it.)

    You are trying to lump me in with those who believe in the supernatural.

    I'll hammer this point....you think that the existence of something vindicates the explanation as to why and how it came into existence. By your own admission you state that a coin left under a pillow is proof that a fairy came and replaced a tooth with a coin. After all, the coin is there so how else could things have transpired?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Ok. So what's your explanation for the passport? How do you believe it got there?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,248 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Multiple passports, identity cards, tickets, even paper itineraries survived the impacts. Some of which are on display in the 9/11 museum. That answers it for you..

    The fact that this stuff survived, at the impact sites, demonstrates that perishable stuff did survive the plane impacts.

    Yet you claim it's impossible for these kind of things to have survived, so how did this stuff survive? If you can't address this your argument is complete and utter nonsense

    Post edited by Dohnjoe on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭ irelandrover


    Aren't there leaks about the budget every year?

    Even if there wasn't that secret only needs to be kept by people for a few months because it is then released to the public. And it is not needed that unhappy staff that leave also keep the secrets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭ storker


    The intelligence agencies are said to have a rule of thumb that the percentage chance of a secret being leaked is the square of the number of people who are in on it. Once you reach 6 your secret is already in big trouble... 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭ Markus Antonius


    It doesn't matter if a secret is leaked because you will always have gullible fools who will point fingers and shout "conspiracy theorist" at anyone who wants to discuss such a secret. They will make any such discussion thread unbearable to the point that anyone potentially "in on a secret" will give up trying to have a discussion about it. The CIA/FBI/NASA etc. know this - they have goons all over the world infatuated by their shiny fake pictures and who will defend them to the bitter end despite the overwhelming evidence.

    They think governments always tell the truth (despite there being countless examples of how this is absolutely not true) and they go along with what the crowd thinks and what mainstream media thinks because it gives them a sense of commeradery and an "us vs them" situation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    And again, you are the perfect example of the absurdity of conspiracy theories. You believe the space program is faked.

    This necessarily requires millions of people of being in on the scam. It's literally impossible, yet you seem to still believe this.

    Your theory is the exact type that Alan was whinging about a few posts ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,248 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    The usual conspiracy "you are all sheep" spiel

    There are leaks all the time; memo's, dossiers, officials leave sensitive documents on trains, whistle-blowers, insiders, politicians who anonymously leak to the press, investigative reporters, regulators, watchdogs, etc, etc

    But in conspiracy theory land information is magically watertight. That's because you have irrational beliefs (e.g. "the space program is fake") which requires millions of people keeping giant nonsensical secrets, and requires you to pathologically lie and evade questions to support. And then, without the slightest hint of irony, you are soapbox about the "truth".



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭ storker


    That's where you're wrong. Leaks come from the inside, but conspiracy theorists are working very much from the outside, and their "evidence" shows it. Where is the leaked information from NASA that proves the faked moon landings? Which member of the 9/11 conspiracy spilled the beans? What was the nature of the revelations and what was their role in the conspiracy? That's what leaked information looks like. All I've ever seen put forward to promote conspiracy theories is a lot of innuendo, combined with bad science and maths and a lot of outright falsehoods. If there is evidence from actual leaked information, I've yet to see it presented.

    You appear to have a very strange idea of what gullible means.

    Note to Mods: It might be interesting to have a thread devoted to bona fide leaked evidence. I suspect one thread would cover all the conspiracies pretty easily. 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,248 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Just to preempt the types of responses you'll get

    "Operation Northwoods, gulf of Tonkien, etc" = conspiracies happened, therefore conspiracies are happening now

    "Some stuff was kept secret in the past, therefore it's easy to keep anything secret no matter how many are involved"

    "Can't prove to me that the conspiracy isn't true"

    "I am special, you are all sheep"



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,739 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Ironically, a lot of the events that conspiracy theorists like to point out as "real conspiracy theories" tend to be revealed specifically by leaks and whistleblowers. Or like in the case of Operation Northwoods, it was exposed because the documents were declassified and released by the mainstream media.

    Never are the "real conspiracy theories" revealed by internet detectives using clues that are supposedly obvious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭ Markus Antonius


    There are many great posts within the conspiracy forum with plenty of evidence supporting a wide array of conspiracy theories. Unfortunately all those posts have been buried down a hole in threads that have been spammed, derailed, stifled, diluted in any way possible by those who simply despise conspiracy theories. It won't be long before this thread also falls victim to such tiresome tactics.

    Also a few years back, there were mods who also fell into this category who would ban people and close any thread that didn't fit their agenda. Thankfully they have moved on and it may allow some frank and interesting discussion to continue again.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭ storker




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