Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Been doing some history reading today, to see if I could fine out why or where 'Putin' thinks Ukraine is a part of Russia.

Based on ...

.... does that mean the Ukraine or Belarus, could claim that Russia is a part of them?

I know Ukraine was a Republic in USSR, but that doesn't automatically give Russia a claim to it.

Why Russia wants Ukraine

'Holodomor' has been mentioned before in thread, given the history between the two, no wonder Ukraine doesn't want to be part of Russia ever again.

Am I the only one thinking fair play to Biden on this comments on a regime change in Russia, we all want it and the world would be a such a better place with it.

And to the people who say the Russians voted for him but we all know how corrupt their electoral system is, it will never happen that he's voted out. He will die in power and I for one hope it's pretty soon

Heard that joke before but it still brings a wry smile upon retelling.

I guess we just have to wait and see how everything pans out. We can all put forward our views and scenarios we envisage could occur but no-one knows what exactly is in Putin's mind, not even his own generals or cabinet.

It's a sad, sad situation when one solitary man can commit such heinous crimes against innocent people whilst threatening oblivion should anyone interfere. The sooner he's dead and in hell the better.

My grandfather would have said, that its a shame he can only die once (he would have used other less parliamentary language too ;)

@liamtech

Russia could never be trusted really, the last 250 odd years as a minimum and especially the last 100 years. Russian regimes (of any sort) generally don't honour treaties or agreements. It's a different cultural mindset and civilisation. Different than, let's say, European civilisation. Russia cannot really be part of ruled based order and international community of nations, in current state.

But you probably meant "Russian under Putin cannot be trusted AT all"; because it could be maybe SOMEWHAT trusted before, e.g. under Medvedev or Jeltsin or perhaps Gorbarchev...😎

I remember attending a seminar on trust as it relates to IR. There is literature on the topic including a book by everyone current favorite theorist

There are various arguments on the topic, and realists certainly argue that International Agreements and norms are relatively toothless.

from the wiki

Mearsheimer suggests that most political lies fall into one of five categories: inter-state lies, fear-mongering, strategic cover-ups, nationalist myths, and liberal lies. He explains the reasons why leaders pursue each of these different kinds of lies. He also says that international lying can have negative effects, and there he emphasizes "blowback," which is where telling international lies helps cause a culture of deceit at home, and (unintended consequences)/"backfiring," which is where telling a lie leads to a failed policy. He also emphasizes that there are two other kinds of deception besides lying: "concealment,” which is where a leader remains silent about an important matter, and "spinning," which is where a leader tells a story that emphasizes the positive and downplays or ignores the negative. Mearsheimer does not consider the moral dimension of international lying; he looks at it simply from a realist perspective.

Ye see, there is always dishonesty to a certain degree - and some will cite the WMD Iraq Claim as the most obvious. All i can say is that in my opinion, Russia (Putin's Russia) has gone way beyond the norm in terms of international dishonesty

• Over 8 years the have created and nurtured a proxy war within the borders of Ukraine
• They have exaggerated the existence of the Azov brigade (a unit which largely came to fruition thanks to their 2014 actions)
• They have lied and attempted to brainwash their own people into thinking that Ukraine is the 'ideological heir' to the Third Reich
• They have invented evidence of war crimes, and genocide, while their very own armies are perpetrating such crimes, as we speak
• They have the temerity to accuse Ukraine of being responsible for the massacres that they are perpetrating in Mariupol
• They have lied about the course of the conflict, and their own goals (hell they even lied repeatedly that they had no intention of actually invading)
• They have disgraced themselves diplomatically before the entire world. I wont list the insults, threats, and innuendos, there is no need to do so - but diplomatically, they are making less sense than North Korea on a very bad day in Pyongyang

These lies are incomparable to anything in contemporary history. I struggle to think of an example which is comparable. If we graded lying on the international stage - George W Bush is Oldham Athletic - Putin is Bayern Munich

Again - all IMHO - interested in the opinions of others - and check out the above book - i read (some of) it years ago - its fascinating (not his best book though)

Russia is finished on the world stage, they have shown how weak they are. They have dropped down to North Korea **** tier.

I feel bad for normal Russians who don't want this but they are a broken people, completely controlled and indoctrinated, it'll take Russia decades to recover from this if the sanctions go on any longer.

China wants no part of this shitshow, they want the wealth of the west buying cheap tat from them

Russia is made up of many internal regions. Russia itself is not homogenous but a union with older internal borders not unlike the larger Soviet Union. These regions are very real with their own local distinct identity. Regions in Russia are stockpiling. The region producing the sugar is not sharing the sugar etc. Putin is waging an internal disinformation war blaming Regional governors for shortages. Due to interconnected global supply parts Russia can no longer manufacture weapons or improve its military. It is clear that the Billions piled into Russia's military has been stolen in the Kleptocracy. Minorities from these regions make up the Russian army. Citizens of Russia have forgotton how to subsist (crops in gardens etc.) so they can't out wait the sanctions.

Sanctions has dealt a deathly blow to Russia and the terminal cracks are manifested as fissures between the many regions. How long before wealthier regions and then others want shot of Putin's 'Russia'. Russia's ability to stop them is demonstrably not there.

Putin has ended Russia with this war. One of the greatest strategic mistakes of the last two centuries.

And how many more will they lose while trying to hold it? Its way easier to turn a defense into an effective insurgency than it is an offence into an effective occupying force.