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Non-restricted license and mag size (centre fire)

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  • 07-03-2022 5:12pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    Just had a call from the FO about a .223 sub I have in regarding mag size. She seemed to suggest that anything greater than 10 rounders needed to be restricted. I know this is the case for Rimfire S/A, but I didn't think there were such restrictions on the Centre Fire non-restricted caliber Bolt Actions. Has anything changed here? Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

    Turns out my .223 comes with 10 rounders anyway, so I think I'm good. But just in case I want to get a bigger mag, I thought I better ask.

    Thanks,

    alanmc.



«13

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    SI 420/2019, amends section 2(f) of the 1925 act which makes any loading device capable of holding more than 10 rounds, I suppose illegal as it states that anyone in possession of such a device should have their license revoked.

    It also limits/makes illegal loading devices over 10 rounds for SACF rifles and over 20 rounds for SACF pistols.

    The limit you might have being thinking off initially was the ten round limit which only applied to rimfire rifles (SA and repeating) as per SI21/2008 and amended by 337/2009.

    To be honest I only ever knew it in relation to SACF rifles, but upon reading it again, based on your question, it seems it applies to all CF rifles (repeating and SA). It also makes such loading devices illegal and so I'm confused as to why your FO would say it makes them restricted.

    Either way if you only have ten round mags you're golden.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭alanmc


    OK, good to know. I'll stick witrh the 10 rounders so. Thanks Cass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Where have you been for the last 5 years?. As per EU law, pistol can have 20+, Rifle can have 10, exceptions for Sports Shooters, (no limit) (EXCEPT in IRELAND, pistols can have only 5, up to .22), not licenceable able above that), How you use them, up to you,(See CASS vs MELLOR), unless you want to send to eastern european country, then, anything allowed.

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Paraphrasing now, but IRISH LAW (as amended by 2017 EU) states that any persons caught in possession of a magazine that can hold more than (20 for pistol) or more than (10 for rifle), for a FIREARMS CERTIFICATE they hold OF THE SAME CALIBRE, is F0CKED. ( EU allowed grandfathering, but of course Ireland didn't)

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I'd assume the FO was simply thinking of the previous condition where a >10 round limit was restricted on a RF but not on a CF (until it was subsequently banned). Presume the reason was down to SAs but it does seem like

    Isn't 22 rimfire pistol, with a capacity of 6 or more, simply restricted rather than outright banned? Is it possible to get a restricted 22pistol license?



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Mellor - Isn't 22 rimfire pistol, with a capacity of 6 or more, simply restricted rather than outright banned? Is it possible to get a restricted 22pistol license?

    The limit for 22lr pistols is 5 rounds and no, its not possible to get a restricted license for one as the 2009 Act prohibits the issuing of restricted short firearm licenses. It makes no mention of it being rimfire or centrefire and as SI 21/2008 and 337/2009 (further amended but not changed by SI 391/2015) makes any 22lr pistol with a capability of holding more than 5 rounds restricted then it falls foul of the 2009 act of issuing a restricted short firearm license(s).

    You are correct that prohibited does not mean outright banned as a Minster could issue such a license as I believe his/her office would be legally allowed to, but prohibited for our needs is as good as banned.

    One of the few clear laws although it took four attempted to get there. Another example of poorly, and hastily, written law. One part of an Act, and three SIs for a single issue because they did not know what they were doing.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Thanks Cass. I forgot the 2009 CF pistol ban was via reference to the restricted SI rather than the affected pistols directly. I suppose intentional as it allows them relatively easy means up updated the impact of 2009 Act.



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    This isn't true. Technically no CF magazine is banned, only loading devices are but that doesn't mean anything. But if you're erring on the side of caution, only magazine that can be used in centrefire semi automatic rifles or pistols aren't allowed. So if your rifle uses AR mags, best to stick to the 10 rounders, but if it's a proprietary magazine you're in the clear.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Munsterlad102 - This isn't true. Technically no CF magazine is banned, only loading devices are but that doesn't mean anything.

    Please elaborate on this. I'd be interested in your take, given the law on the matter.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Let me give you the simplified version of all this.

    In Ireland;

    10 rounds for any LONG firearm, be it, CF or CF restricted, .22 rifled or shotgun is the legal limit. [Now in national legislation and EU directive]It is irrespective of whether the mag[ and talking CF here] is compatible with a semi-auto CF or a proprietary mag.

    20 rounds for a CF pistol.No change

    5 Rounds for a .22 pistol as a non-restricted firearm. [There are some freaks out there with restricted 10 round .22 pistols, but its not a norm so not one to be concerned about]

    Under the directive and Irish law. You CANNOT now possess legally any magazine body, that is CAPABLE of holding more than 10 or 20 rounds respectively for any firearm that would fit in your possession. So even permanently blocking your SACF mag to ten rounds is illegal under the directive. It cannot be physically capable of having the space to hold more than 10/20 rounds inc the spring and follower and base plate.Only choice is if it is an original mag and unique, is to physically cut the mag in half and rework it to hold ten rounds only.

    Simples🙄

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭alanmc


    Thanks lads for all the answers. Much appreciated. I really have no need for any more than 10 rounders anyway, so all good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I'd assume he is referring to the fact that "loading device" is not defined in Irish law.

    I agree that it's a awkward choice of words, but I think you'd have a tough time selling the idea that it was referring to something other than magazines and the like. IIRC the US mag ban used the term "ammunition feeding device".

    Obviously the guys with the CF pistols are grandfather licenses (Pre-2009).

    Are the 10 round 22 RF pistol on similar licenses? Presumably they are holding restricted pistol licenses. In which case would their limit be in theory (if a magazine was manufactured in that capacity). 20? 30?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Obviously, the guys with the CF pistols are grandfather licenses (Pre-2009).

    Are the 10 round 22 RF pistol on similar licenses? Presumably they are holding restricted pistol licenses. In which case would their limit be in theory (if a magazine was manufactured in that capacity). 20? 30?


    Good question on the former. I'd ASSume that they would be under the same restrictions as a normal CF restricted pistol limits of possession etc. The only one that I've seen so far is definitely a .22 restricted license. As it stands they could use 20 round .22 pistol mags no problem.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Mellor really hit the nail on the head. It's not defined under Irish or EU legislation and can mean a lot of different things, whether it be those speed loaders for magazines or something else. Also Cat A firearms are allowed to be kept that were licensed prior to the 31st of August 2019, and this covers CF SA rifles with a "loading device capacity" of over 10 rounds, and this sort of brings up an interesting scenario, if you have a license to possess 11+ round mags, how can you have said license revoked for being in possession of said magazines? Bit of a contradiction in the legislation.

    Let's not forget about compensation. I know we've discussed this in the past and you did explain it to me, but I still can't get my head around the EU saying that ownership of something can be revoked without compensation. Seems very unconstitutional to me. Also the punishment for being in possession of these "loading devices" is having your firearms license revoked, so in other words anyone how doesn't have such a firearms license can own these.



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Nope, you're forgetting about some things there Grizz.

    Re 10 rounds: there is no magazine limit for non restricted CF long firearms, bar shotguns. There is no mention of any such cap under the 2008 order and there hasn't been any amendment to said order regarding those firearms. Same situation for restricted rimfire rifles and shotguns. The only 10 round mag restriction is for non restricted rimfire rifles and CF SA issued after the 31st August 2019.

    The 10 round "loading device" restriction is only for Cat B firearms. I thought I misread the legislation there for a minute and had a mini heart attack, but thankfully I just missed something.

    Re 20 round: no magazine limit as all can be Cat A as they were issued before the 31st August 2019 cut off date, ie semi auto pistols could be Cat A, whereas revolvers would be Cat B.

    Not sure where it says anything about a magazine body, but if you put a block or a dowel in a magazine to restrict the capacity to 10, then you're fine. There's no mention of permanence under any legislation that I can think of. Just for your sake Grizz, I hope you didn't chop your mags in half.



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Yeah, nor is it defined under EU law. I emailed someone in the EU about that a while ago, someone in the relevant department who's name escapes me, and they didn't have a clue. Well when I think of loading device I think of something that's used to load magazines.

    There is no restriction on capacity for restricted short firearms. The highest capacity mag I saw for a RF pistol was a 25 rounder for a Glock conversion kit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Just to correct myself, you can use any mag in your non restricted CF rifle as the 10 round limit only refers to Cat B firearms which are mostly just CF SA and short firearms.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Munsterlad102 - Mellor really hit the nail on the head. It's not defined under Irish or EU legislation and can mean a lot of different things, whether it be those speed loaders for magazines or something else.

    So its an argument in semantics in that because the term loading device is vague that it can be "ignored"? Interesting point, but as @Mellor also pointed out you'd have a tough time trying to argue such semantics in front of a Judge. Perhaps like other legislation its purposfully vague so it can excompass all loading devices without referring to individual ones that might also be rgued don't apply to certain firearms. For example saying a 15 shot cylinder then have someone argue their gun uses a belt or box mag so it doesn't apply to them?

    Munsterlad102 - Also Cat A firearms are allowed to be kept that were licensed prior to the 31st of August 2019,

    I missed that. Where is that in the Directive or SI? I read it that such Cateogry A firearms can no longer be applied for and stand revoked as and from 1st March 2019 and 1st September 2019 respectfully. Also the majority of Cat A firearms are prohibited from Civlian ownership, if not all, with Cat B firearms being the main "force" of firearms privately owned/licensed.

    Munsterlad102 - and this covers CF SA rifles with a "loading device capacity" of over 10 rounds,

    In the original EU directive they allowed for certain sports shooters to have and continue to have magazines (or loading devices) over 10 rounds for CF long firearms, but it was never put into the Irish law/SI and hence doesn't apply.

    Munsterlad102 - and this sort of brings up an interesting scenario, if you have a license to possess 11+ round mags, how can you have said license revoked for being in possession of said magazines? Bit of a contradiction in the legislation.

    The firearm license is not for the magazine/loading device, but for the firearm itself. Its why you don't need a license for every magazine you buy for your guns. Possession of the now "Banned" laoding devices makes the firearm illegal hence the law says people with firearms with such devices should have the licenses revoked, I assume as punishment for breaching the SI/Law.

    Munsterlad102 - Let's not forget about compensation. I know we've discussed this in the past and you did explain it to me, but I still can't get my head around the EU saying that ownership of something can be revoked without compensation.

    The EU issue directives which each member state must comply with using the EU directive as the minimum in terms of restrictiveness of any laws based on it. Hence why our EU brethren get to keep their 20 round mags and we don't. However your point has some validity. This is a rare occasion where the Irish Government outright banned an item. I suppose their thoughts were how many people actually have such magazines and are willing to go to court over, and this is a wild ass guess, a hundred Euro worth of property.

    Seems very unconstitutional to me.

    There is no constitutional right to firearms so no case to answer there. If you mean the loss of private property then the safty of the public will be floated and such cases (anyone suing to keep the laoding devices, ie: shooters) would be lost, albeit on moral not legal grounds, imo.

    Munsterlad102 - Also the punishment for being in possession of these "loading devices" is having your firearms license revoked, so in other words anyone how doesn't have such a firearms license can own these.

    Sorry I cannot follow this. Not being a dick but its not reading right. The punishment for having such a loading device, after the cut off date, is the revocation of your license. I don't understand the point of the highlighted bit so will wait till you explain before replying.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Munsterlad102 - Re 10 rounds: there is no magazine limit for non restricted CF long firearms, bar shotguns. There is no mention of any such cap under the 2008 order and there hasn't been any amendment to said order regarding those firearms

    Section 2(f) as amended by SI420/2019:

    2F. An issuing person shall revoke a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category B of the Directive granted by the person where the holder of the certificate is found to be in possession of -

    (a) a loading device which can hold more than 20 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating short firearm, or

    (b) a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating long firearm.

    Continuing the argument in semantics you could argue the meaning of repeating long firearm, but it may be an exercise in futility.

    Munsterlad102 - Not sure where it says anything about a magazine body, but if you put a block or a dowel in a magazine to restrict the capacity to 10, then you're fine.

    Once again semantics play their part. The laws says "can hold". Even with a block/dowel the magazine can hold more, ableit with such a blocker not at that moment. Would be a tough sale in court.

    Munsterlad102 - The 10 round "loading device" restriction is only for Cat B firearms. I thought I misread the legislation there for a minute and had a mini heart attack, but thankfully I just missed something.

    As the SI effectively bans anything firearm that is not already prohibited in Cat A then of course all restrictions apply to Cat B.

    Munsterlad102 -Re 20 round: no magazine limit as all can be Cat A as they were issued before the 31st August 2019 cut off date, ie semi auto pistols could be Cat A, whereas revolvers would be Cat B.

    As mentioned above as I read it Cat A firearms are all but banned, magazines for Cat A are now banned and the August 31st "deadline" was that all lciense pertaining to such firearms stand revoked after September 1st.

    Also can I ask about the August 31st 2019 "deadline" you keep mentioning as though anything before it is grandfathered when the law says such firearms that fall into Cat A firearms stand revoked on the 1st September, and makes no mention of being grandfathered.

    When the pistol ban was mentioned in 2008 and came into force in 2009 the law specifically grandfathered such firearms for those that owned them before November 2008:

    Section 3(D)(c)(1) & (2) -


    3D.  —   (1) As and from the date of commencement of this section, no application for a firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm shall be considered by an issuing person other than for  —


    ( c ) a short firearm for which the applicant for the firearm certificate held a firearm certificate on or before 19 November 2008.

    And banned anyone else from applying for them as well as revoking the licenses of those granted between November 2008 and June 2009:

    Section 3(D)(2) -


    (2) Any firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm, other than one to which paragraphs ( a ) to ( c ) of subsection (1) relates, granted between 19 November 2008 and the date of commencement of this section and in force shall stand revoked.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Not sure where it says anything about a magazine body, but if you put a block or a dowel in a magazine to restrict the capacity to 10, then you're fine. There's no mention of permanence under any legislation that I can think of. Just for your sake Grizz, I hope you didn't chop your mags in half.

    This is what the EU directive decided was the definition of a magazine, as it was pointed out to them as to what exactly did they intend to ban was so technically vague as to be unenforceable. So the decision was to go after the literal container[IE the mag body] as the most logical thing to ensure compliance. The next problem was,say you had some exotic that has very few mags commonly available [EG a BM59] . Your only choice to keep it in a Cat B is to use a ten round. Ergo unless you have a talented gunsmith, your only choice would be to cut it to ten rounds. This is what part of the FUNI meet was with the DOJ in Dec 2019 to try and get clarification from the DOJ on this being transposed into Irish law, would such a block be acceptable? And the status of the CAT A firearms being exempt post-2019 here.

    NOTE that part of the EU directive RE the CAT A guns been exempt pre-2019 has NOT been transcribed into Irish legislation for whatever reason. So buyer beware on that point.


    Munsterlad102 - Also the punishment for being in possession of these "loading devices" is having your firearms license revoked, so in other words anyone how doesn't have such a firearms license can own these.

    Sorry I cannot follow this. Not being a dick but its not reading right. The punishment for having such a loading device, after the cut off date, is the revocation of your license. I don't understand the point of the highlighted bit so will wait till you explain before replying.


    You are getting this confused with the EU directive on this. There are many EU countries that allow the free collection of magazines without you needing to go to all the hassle of acquiring a firearms permit.As they recognise a mag as being nothing more than a spring in an empty box. So say you collect mags in Germany. You can have any and all types of mags in your collection no problem, from a 20 mm Flack gun to a Kolibri pistol is good.BUT say you have a firearms cert for an AR15. You cannot, absolutely must not have ANY type of mag greater than ten rounds in your mag collection that fits an AR. As if it is inserted it becomes a CAT A prohibited firearm, and you lose that particular firearm and mags from your permit if caught in possesion of both at the same address.

    As however in Ireland we treat a magazine as a firearm component under our law, and you must have a relevant permit to possess a firearm.This part of the directive is mostly irrelevant to us.Bar the point that you cannot possess a mag for a long firearm over ten rounds legally anymore here. As the govt also did not avail of the exemption offered by the directive for competitors in disciplines that needed the higher capacity.[1] IPSC is banned in the ROI, which is the main user in Europe and the other is the extreme anti-gun policy of the PTBhere in relation to SACF in general .


    Let's not forget about compensation. I know we've discussed this in the past and you did explain it to me, but I still can't get my head around the EU saying that ownership of something can be revoked without compensation. Seems very unconstitutional to me. 

    Talk to Poland, Hungary and the Czechs about this. They brought this very point to the EU courts of justice as it contravenes Article 5 [?] of the EUCHR on just and fair compensation for property surrendered for the common good. The EU courts ruled against them. Claiming to own a firearm is a privilege and not a right under EU law, so therefore no compensation is due by a state that decides to ban firearms. However,it could be argued that precedent was set by the UK with the Dunblane and Hungerford bans back when the UK was an EU member.

    It is one other reason that the Czech Republic introduced their version of the 2nd amendment into their constitution as a big middle finger to Brussels, making them the 2nd only country enshrining gun ownership as a constitutional right.

    The EU court is a rather rigged affair IMO. We have seen in the Covid years it stating that being able to refuse an inoculation personally or on your children is not an absolute right either it is outweighed by the "common good" thus violating another article of EUCHR of the right to bodily integrity. Seems the EUCHR isn't worth the fancy paper its written on.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    So its an argument in semantics in that because the term loading device is vague that it can be "ignored"? Interesting point, but as @Mellor also pointed out you'd have a tough time trying to argue such semantics in front of a Judge. Perhaps like other legislation its purposfully vague so it can excompass all loading devices without referring to individual ones that might also be rgued don't apply to certain firearms. For example saying a 15 shot cylinder then have someone argue their gun uses a belt or box mag so it doesn't apply to them?

    I assume that they intentionally didn't want to say magazine as that strictly doesn't cover a number of options. I think it's reasonable to be generic like that, but could have phrased it better.

    Interestingly the restricted SI only says "magazines" but people accept that includes revolvers out of common sense. Another one for the tidy up list.



  • Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭JP22


    It’s no wonder this thread has gained long legs; Irish Laws/Regs are FUBAR and not fit for a modern society.

    I see 3,000 odd obsolete laws are to be removal from Irish statute books, this is probably the tip of the iceberg............




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Just for my replies I had to reference the 1925 act, the 2006 Act then the 2008 Dail statement as well as check the 2008 SI, 2009 Act, 2009 SI, 2015 SI, 2019 SI (based on EU directive). So three acts, four SIs, an EU diretive and a Dail statement just to try get an answer about a magazine.

    Even then people read it differently and infer different meanings. No wonder people try to avoid this aspect of the sport. Its a headf**k (excuse the language).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    We DID point this out to them in the Dail public inquiry back in 2017[?] So am wondering is this Min James Browne planning to review this in its entirety and do something of value to reform this all.Or just use us for a political ladder-climbing exercise?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    So its an argument in semantics in that because the term loading device is vague that it can be "ignored"?

    It's not entirely an argument in semantics, I threw out a few other thoughts about compensation and Cat A firearms but it is more or less. The Irish or EU legislature had all the time in the world to come up with an all encompassing definition for loading devices but they never did, so we really should be asking for a concrete definition.

    I missed that. Where is that in the Directive or SI?

    I believe it is in section 2E of the principle act, and it says it's from SI 420/2019 but I'm not 100% sure on that.

    In the original EU directive they allowed for certain sports shooters to have and continue to have magazines (or loading devices) over 10 rounds for CF long firearms, but it was never put into the Irish law/SI and hence doesn't apply.

    I heard that mentioned before, but that would still be Cat A. However it does mention in section 2D(3) "This section shall not apply to   — the possession, in accordance with an authorisation under section 2(7), of a firearm classified in Category A of the Directive". So there is a potential exemption for sports shooting. So yeah, it was put into the Irish law.

    The firearm license is not for the magazine/loading device, but for the firearm itself. Its why you don't need a license for every magazine you buy for your guns. Possession of the now "Banned" laoding devices makes the firearm illegal hence the law says people with firearms with such devices should have the licenses revoked, I assume as punishment for breaching the SI/Law.

    The point I was making is that no magazine is truly banned. The punishment for having a 11+/21+ loading device is losing your Cat B firearm license. Ergo, someone who doesn't have a Cat B license or any firearms license can own them. You don't need to assume, that's what the act says.

    An issuing person shall revoke a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category B of the Directive granted by the person where the holder of the certificate is found to be in possession of-

    This is a rare occasion where the Irish Government outright banned an item. I suppose their thoughts were how many people actually have such magazines and are willing to go to court over, and this is a wild ass guess, a hundred Euro worth of property.

    Exactly, but this could be used against the legislature in the whole "loading device" debacle. IE, the government didn't provide compensation for magazines, which had they should have had they been specifically referring to them, ergo magazines =/= loading devices. That's just a thought though, I'm no legal scholar so there's probably something I'm not considering.

    There is no constitutional right to firearms so no case to answer there. If you mean the loss of private property then the safty of the public will be floated and such cases (anyone suing to keep the laoding devices, ie: shooters) would be lost, albeit on moral not legal grounds, imo.

    Ah come on now Cass, you knew I wasn't referring to a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. America is an ocean away. But I heard somewhere that all constitutional rights are subject to the common good, but I highly doubt that banning 11+/21+ round magazines would be in the common good, nor is there any evidence of such a notion, but like I said, I don't have a legal background and I'm open to correction.

    Sorry I cannot follow this. Not being a dick but its not reading right. The punishment for having such a loading device, after the cut off date, is the revocation of your license. I don't understand the point of the highlighted bit so will wait till you explain before replying.

    Yeah no worries. What I meant to say was if you have a license to own a 11+ round magazine, how could there be another clause in the act banning those magazines, and the punishment being the loss of said license. IE the government says you can own those magazines, but also says you can't own those magazines. Hope that clarifies my point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Section 2(f) as amended by SI420/2019:

     An issuing person shall revoke a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category B of the Directive granted by the person where the holder of the certificate is found to be in possession of —

    ) a loading device which can hold more than 20 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating short firearm, or

    (b ) a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating long firearm.

    Only applies to Cat B firearms. Only semi auto long firearms are mentioned, so doesn't apply to non restricted firearms.

    Continuing the argument in semantics you could argue the meaning of repeating long firearm, but it may be an exercise in futility.

    Nope, not in the slightest, repeating firearms are defined under the 2008 order and aren't Cat B but can't be owned by Cat B firearm owners.

    “repeating firearms” means firearms that are loaded and reloaded from a magazine or cylinder by a manually-operated mechanism;

    Once again semantics play their part. The laws says "can hold". Even with a block/dowel the magazine can hold more, ableit with such a blocker not at that moment. Would be a tough sale in court.

    Very much so, however this would be similar to the current handgun and shotgun magazine rules, and a wooden dowel has been fine since 2008.

    As mentioned above as I read it Cat A firearms are all but banned, magazines for Cat A are now banned and the August 31st "deadline" was that all lciense pertaining to such firearms stand revoked after September 1st.

    There is an exemption for Cat A firearms covered under section 2(7) of the directive. So no, magazines for Cat A aren't banned outright, but I highly doubt that anyone will be able to get an authorization for them.

    (3) This section shall not apply to —

    ) the possession, in accordance with an authorisation under section 2(7), of a firearm classified in Category A of the Directive


    Also can I ask abou.t the August 31st 2019 "deadline" you keep mentioning as though anything before it is grandfathered when the law says such firearms that fall into Cat A firearms stand revoked on the 1st September, and makes no mention of being grandfathered

    I will admit that I made a mistake about all Cat A firearms being grandfathered, only ones covered under section 2(7), as mentioned above.



  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    This is what the EU directive decided was the definition of a magazine

    Magazine or loading device? If the latter, then I concede, but if the former then that doesn't have any impact on the "loading device" debacle because there is no mention of magazine in the directives, nor do they draw any links between the two.

    As however in Ireland we treat a magazine as a firearm component under our law

    Where does it say that? A magazine doesn't really fit any of the numerous definitions of a firearm, but one is arguable.

    Bar the point that you cannot possess a mag for a long firearm over ten rounds legally anymore here

    I addressed this in one of my previous messages to Cass from earlier today, but to summarise, yes you can.

    The EU court is a rather rigged affair IMO. We have seen in the Covid years it stating that being able to refuse an inoculation personally or on your children is not an absolute right either it is outweighed by the "common good" thus violating another article of EUCHR of the right to bodily integrity. Seems the EUCHR isn't worth the fancy paper its written on.

    Agreed. I don't know a huge amount about them, but what I've heard is that they're spineless puppets of Brussels.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Munsterlad102 - I believe it is in section 2E of the principle act, and it says it's from SI 420/2019 but I'm not 100% sure on that.

    That section says most all firearms, currently licensed as of 31st August 2019 in Cat A, stand revoked as off the 1st September 2019.

    Munsterlad102 - I heard that mentioned before, but that would still be Cat A. 

    Which as off 1st March 2020, stands revoked. Magazines btw.

    Munsterlad102 - However it does mention in section 2D(3) "This section shall not apply to — the possession, in accordance with an authorisation under section 2(7), of a firearm classified in Category A of the Directive". So there is a potential exemption for sports shooting. So yeah, it was put into the Irish law

    The key part of that, which was amended by SI420 is the dates set:

    SI420/2019- during the period beginning on 1 September 2019 and ending on 29 February 2020

    So there is an end date of the "exemption".

    Munsterlad102 - The point I was making is that no magazine is truly banned. The punishment for having a 11+/21+ loading device is losing your Cat B firearm license. Ergo, someone who doesn't have a Cat B license or any firearms license can own them. You don't need to assume, that's what the act says.

    The only Cat A firearm I know you can license is a CF pistol and SACF rifle, however under part 7 of the Category A listings those are restricted to loading devices of not more than 20 rounds and 10 rounds respectively.

    SI420/2019- Section 2E. (1) On and from 1 September 2019, no application for a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category A of the Directive shall be considered by an issuing person.

    So they allow for SACF rifles with the 10 round limit and CF pistols with 20 round limits ONLY. Everything else is gone/prohibited, essentially banned.

    Munsterlad102 - That's just a thought though, I'm no legal scholar so there's probably something I'm not considering.

    You might have a case which could be brought to court. I personally think you'd loose the case on the terminology used, but may win on the banning of your ability to own your own property. The costs would be huge compared to the pay out and also the "ban" was not immediate. They announced it months before and gave people X amount of time to sell their, soon to be, banned items.

    Munsterlad102 - Ah come on now Cass, you knew I wasn't referring to a constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

    Just covering all bases as you wouldn't have been the first to cite constitutional issues regarding firearms when they don't exist.

    Munsterlad102 - Hope that clarifies my point.

    It does, thanks. There is no problem as the law does not say you can own it and then ban it at the same time. It says if you own any firearm in Cat A then all such firearm licenses stand revoked on the 1st March 2019 and for others the 1st September 2019. As I outlined above there was an end date on any exemption, this was to allow people time to sell their magazines or other sundries that would stand revoked come the end date.

    The only exemption being SACF rifles with a mag capacity of up to 10 rounds and CF pistol with mags up to 20 rounds.

    With all due respect its a case of you reading it wrong, not that the law says two different things. The main issue you have is that they call magazines loading devices. I completely agree it could be named better and a court case would settle the matter, but not in the way you hope it might go and they law is actually clear enough (assuming you accept loading device as meaning magazines) that such mags are banned. Its why I'm replying as I don't want anyone falling foul of the law nby thinking they are legal.

    Post edited by Cass on
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    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Munsterlad102 - Only applies to Cat B firearms. Only semi auto long firearms are mentioned, so doesn't apply to non restricted firearms.

    It doesn't just deal with semi-autos but that aside, the SI specifically lists SACF rifles with loading devices of no more than 10 rounds. So you believe because this is a Cat A firearm and section 2(f) only deals with Cat B. So in essence you think that because there is "ambiguity" of the categorisation of SACF rifles that the law doesn't apply?

    Have I got that right?

    Munsterlad102 - Nope, not in the slightest, repeating firearms are defined under the 2008 order and aren't Cat B but can't be owned by Cat B firearm owners.

    So if I'm still following you, and continuing on from my point above, you belive because of the categorisation of the firearm that the laws don't apply to them, and by default the mags (because I don't want the primary issue of the magazines being lost in other points)?

    Munsterlad102 - Very much so, however this would be similar to the current handgun and shotgun magazine rules, and a wooden dowel has been fine since 2008.

    The difference being that was finally clarified in 2015 with SI 391.

    Munsterlad102 - There is an exemption for Cat A firearms covered under section 2(7) of the directive

    Which has an end date of 29th February 2020.


    By the way I've edited my replies a couple of times now for one simple reason, dates. My head is melted trying to keep them right. One "extension" ends on 1st September 2019, another on 1 st March 2020, while another still ends on 1st March 2019, but the SI lists the end dates too (the date before which seems redundant). Keep mixing up which end date applies to which item.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    I heard that mentioned before, but that would still be Cat A. However it does mention in section 2D(3) "This section shall not apply to — the possession, in accordance with an authorisation under section 2(7), of a firearm classified in Category A of the Directive". So there is a potential exemption for sports shooting. So yeah, it was put into the Irish law.

    No, it wasn't! There was an exemption in the EU directive for countries to include this exemption in their national firearms laws.Irelanjd never took that exemption.This was another point we tried to get sorted when FUNI met with the DOJ. The DOJ refused to consider this exemption for two reasons;[1] The policy of reduction of ownership of firearms by DOJ/AGS/Irish Govt in the hands of Irish citizens, particularly semi-auto firearms. and [2] That the main users of this exemption is IPSC,which of course is banned in Ireland. We don't have any other disciplines that use over 10 shots here...So what's our reason for an exemption? Case closed!

    The only Cat A firearm I know you can license is a CF pistol and SACF rifle, however under part 7 of the Category A listings those are restricted to loading devices of not more than 20 rounds and 10 rounds respectively.

    Nope. They are now CAT B As a CAT A [prohibited is per the directive] A former select-fire weapon that has been converted to semi-auto or has been converted to a blank-firing firearm, still with full auto function[With the exemption of basically the Swiss veterans being able to keep their converted SIG assault rifles].The only way you can really own a CAT A type of gun is to have it torn down and into a parts kit and rebuilt into a CAT B using non-military parts and have any removed that create select fire.OR have it converted into a Cat B straight-pull bolt action.

    Your CAT B[3] becomes a prohibited CAT A weapon is when you insert a mag into it that has over 10 or 20 shots respectively into it.


    Munsterlad102 - Very much so, however this would be similar to the current handgun and shotgun magazine rules, and a wooden dowel has been fine since 2008.

    Won't work with the CF SA mags.It's there in B&W in the EU directive as to what they are after and that's the body of the mag. Believe me ,this has been argued back and forth in Brussels, the Bundestag and all over Europe that was affected. If it could have been done, to keep or block the mags to 10 rounds it would have been done.In short,it is and became a gigantic clusterf22k, all over the EU.With this vagueness


    Magazine or loading device? If the latter, then I concede, but if the former then that doesn't have any impact on the "loading device" debacle because there is no mention of a magazine in the directives, nor do they draw any links between the two.

    Check again,I think it is in the directive[final version and adapted] a definition of a loading device?

    As however in Ireland we treat a magazine as a firearm component under our law

    Where does it say that? A magazine doesn't really fit any of the numerous definitions of a firearm, but one is arguable.

    If the law treats a bunch of wooden stock screws as firearm components. How do you think it will treat you as possessing a critical piece of a firearm?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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