Non-restricted license and mag size (centre fire)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118757977#Comment_118757977

So its an argument in semantics in that because the term loading device is vague that it can be "ignored"?

It's not entirely an argument in semantics, I threw out a few other thoughts about compensation and Cat A firearms but it is more or less. The Irish or EU legislature had all the time in the world to come up with an all encompassing definition for loading devices but they never did, so we really should be asking for a concrete definition.

I missed that. Where is that in the Directive or SI?

I believe it is in section 2E of the principle act, and it says it's from SI 420/2019 but I'm not 100% sure on that.

In the original EU directive they allowed for certain sports shooters to have and continue to have magazines (or loading devices) over 10 rounds for CF long firearms, but it was never put into the Irish law/SI and hence doesn't apply.

I heard that mentioned before, but that would still be Cat A. However it does mention in section 2D(3) "This section shall not apply to — the possession, in accordance with an authorisation under section 2(7), of a firearm classified in Category A of the Directive". So there is a potential exemption for sports shooting. So yeah, it was put into the Irish law.

The firearm license is not for the magazine/loading device, but for the firearm itself. Its why you don't need a license for every magazine you buy for your guns. Possession of the now "Banned" laoding devices makes the firearm illegal hence the law says people with firearms with such devices should have the licenses revoked, I assume as punishment for breaching the SI/Law.

The point I was making is that no magazine is truly banned. The punishment for having a 11+/21+ loading device is losing your Cat B firearm license. Ergo, someone who doesn't have a Cat B license or any firearms license can own them. You don't need to assume, that's what the act says.

An issuing person shall revoke a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category B of the Directive granted by the person where the holder of the certificate is found to be in possession of-

This is a rare occasion where the Irish Government outright banned an item. I suppose their thoughts were how many people actually have such magazines and are willing to go to court over, and this is a wild ass guess, a hundred Euro worth of property.

Exactly, but this could be used against the legislature in the whole "loading device" debacle. IE, the government didn't provide compensation for magazines, which had they should have had they been specifically referring to them, ergo magazines =/= loading devices. That's just a thought though, I'm no legal scholar so there's probably something I'm not considering.

There is no constitutional right to firearms so no case to answer there. If you mean the loss of private property then the safty of the public will be floated and such cases (anyone suing to keep the laoding devices, ie: shooters) would be lost, albeit on moral not legal grounds, imo.

Ah come on now Cass, you knew I wasn't referring to a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. America is an ocean away. But I heard somewhere that all constitutional rights are subject to the common good, but I highly doubt that banning 11+/21+ round magazines would be in the common good, nor is there any evidence of such a notion, but like I said, I don't have a legal background and I'm open to correction.

Sorry I cannot follow this. Not being a dick but its not reading right. The punishment for having such a loading device, after the cut off date, is the revocation of your license. I don't understand the point of the highlighted bit so will wait till you explain before replying.

Yeah no worries. What I meant to say was if you have a license to own a 11+ round magazine, how could there be another clause in the act banning those magazines, and the punishment being the loss of said license. IE the government says you can own those magazines, but also says you can't own those magazines. Hope that clarifies my point.

We DID point this out to them in the Dail public inquiry back in 2017[?] So am wondering is this Min James Browne planning to review this in its entirety and do something of value to reform this all.Or just use us for a political ladder-climbing exercise?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/over-3-000-obsolete-laws-face-removal-from-irish-statute-books-1.4821742

Just for my replies I had to reference the 1925 act, the 2006 Act then the 2008 Dail statement as well as check the 2008 SI, 2009 Act, 2009 SI, 2015 SI, 2019 SI (based on EU directive). So three acts, four SIs, an EU diretive and a Dail statement just to try get an answer about a magazine.

Even then people read it differently and infer different meanings. No wonder people try to avoid this aspect of the sport. Its a headf**k (excuse the language).

JP22

It’s no wonder this thread has gained long legs; Irish Laws/Regs are FUBAR and not fit for a modern society.

I see 3,000 odd obsolete laws are to be removal from Irish statute books, this is probably the tip of the iceberg............

So its an argument in semantics in that because the term loading device is vague that it can be "ignored"? Interesting point, but as @Mellor also pointed out you'd have a tough time trying to argue such semantics in front of a Judge. Perhaps like other legislation its purposfully vague so it can excompass all loading devices without referring to individual ones that might also be rgued don't apply to certain firearms. For example saying a 15 shot cylinder then have someone argue their gun uses a belt or box mag so it doesn't apply to them?

I assume that they intentionally didn't want to say magazine as that strictly doesn't cover a number of options. I think it's reasonable to be generic like that, but could have phrased it better.

Interestingly the restricted SI only says "magazines" but people accept that includes revolvers out of common sense. Another one for the tidy up list.

Not sure where it says anything about a magazine body, but if you put a block or a dowel in a magazine to restrict the capacity to 10, then you're fine. There's no mention of permanence under any legislation that I can think of. Just for your sake Grizz, I hope you didn't chop your mags in half.

This is what the EU directive decided was the definition of a magazine, as it was pointed out to them as to what exactly did they intend to ban was so technically vague as to be unenforceable. So the decision was to go after the literal container[IE the mag body] as the most logical thing to ensure compliance. The next problem was,say you had some exotic that has very few mags commonly available [EG a BM59] . Your only choice to keep it in a Cat B is to use a ten round. Ergo unless you have a talented gunsmith, your only choice would be to cut it to ten rounds. This is what part of the FUNI meet was with the DOJ in Dec 2019 to try and get clarification from the DOJ on this being transposed into Irish law, would such a block be acceptable? And the status of the CAT A firearms being exempt post-2019 here.

NOTE that part of the EU directive RE the CAT A guns been exempt pre-2019 has NOT been transcribed into Irish legislation for whatever reason. So buyer beware on that point.

Munsterlad102 - Also the punishment for being in possession of these "loading devices" is having your firearms license revoked, so in other words anyone how doesn't have such a firearms license can own these.

You are getting this confused with the EU directive on this. There are many EU countries that allow the free collection of magazines without you needing to go to all the hassle of acquiring a firearms permit.As they recognise a mag as being nothing more than a spring in an empty box. So say you collect mags in Germany. You can have any and all types of mags in your collection no problem, from a 20 mm Flack gun to a Kolibri pistol is good.BUT say you have a firearms cert for an AR15. You cannot, absolutely must not have ANY type of mag greater than ten rounds in your mag collection that fits an AR. As if it is inserted it becomes a CAT A prohibited firearm, and you lose that particular firearm and mags from your permit if caught in possesion of both at the same address.

As however in Ireland we treat a magazine as a firearm component under our law, and you must have a relevant permit to possess a firearm.This part of the directive is mostly irrelevant to us.Bar the point that you cannot possess a mag for a long firearm over ten rounds legally anymore here. As the govt also did not avail of the exemption offered by the directive for competitors in disciplines that needed the higher capacity.[1] IPSC is banned in the ROI, which is the main user in Europe and the other is the extreme anti-gun policy of the PTBhere in relation to SACF in general .

Talk to Poland, Hungary and the Czechs about this. They brought this very point to the EU courts of justice as it contravenes Article 5 [?] of the EUCHR on just and fair compensation for property surrendered for the common good. The EU courts ruled against them. Claiming to own a firearm is a privilege and not a right under EU law, so therefore no compensation is due by a state that decides to ban firearms. However,it could be argued that precedent was set by the UK with the Dunblane and Hungerford bans back when the UK was an EU member.

It is one other reason that the Czech Republic introduced their version of the 2nd amendment into their constitution as a big middle finger to Brussels, making them the 2nd only country enshrining gun ownership as a constitutional right.

The EU court is a rather rigged affair IMO. We have seen in the Covid years it stating that being able to refuse an inoculation personally or on your children is not an absolute right either it is outweighed by the "common good" thus violating another article of EUCHR of the right to bodily integrity. Seems the EUCHR isn't worth the fancy paper its written on.

Munsterlad102 - Re 10 rounds: there is no magazine limit for non restricted CF long firearms, bar shotguns. There is no mention of any such cap under the 2008 order and there hasn't been any amendment to said order regarding those firearms

Section 2(f) as amended by SI420/2019:

2F. An issuing person shall revoke a firearm certificate in respect of a firearm classified in Category B of the Directive granted by the person where the holder of the certificate is found to be in possession of -

(a) a loading device which can hold more than 20 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating short firearm, or

(b) a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating long firearm.

Continuing the argument in semantics you could argue the meaning of repeating long firearm, but it may be an exercise in futility.

Munsterlad102 - Not sure where it says anything about a magazine body, but if you put a block or a dowel in a magazine to restrict the capacity to 10, then you're fine.

Once again semantics play their part. The laws says "can hold". Even with a block/dowel the magazine can hold more, ableit with such a blocker not at that moment. Would be a tough sale in court.

Munsterlad102 - The 10 round "loading device" restriction is only for Cat B firearms. I thought I misread the legislation there for a minute and had a mini heart attack, but thankfully I just missed something.

As the SI effectively bans anything firearm that is not already prohibited in Cat A then of course all restrictions apply to Cat B.

Munsterlad102 -Re 20 round: no magazine limit as all can be Cat A as they were issued before the 31st August 2019 cut off date, ie semi auto pistols could be Cat A, whereas revolvers would be Cat B.

As mentioned above as I read it Cat A firearms are all but banned, magazines for Cat A are now banned and the August 31st "deadline" was that all lciense pertaining to such firearms stand revoked after September 1st.

Also can I ask about the August 31st 2019 "deadline" you keep mentioning as though anything before it is grandfathered when the law says such firearms that fall into Cat A firearms stand revoked on the 1st September, and makes no mention of being grandfathered.

When the pistol ban was mentioned in 2008 and came into force in 2009 the law specifically grandfathered such firearms for those that owned them before November 2008:

Section 3(D)(c)(1) & (2) -

3D. — (1) As and from the date of commencement of this section, no application for a firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm shall be considered by an issuing person other than for —

( c ) a short firearm for which the applicant for the firearm certificate held a firearm certificate on or before 19 November 2008.

And banned anyone else from applying for them as well as revoking the licenses of those granted between November 2008 and June 2009:

Section 3(D)(2) -

(2) Any firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm, other than one to which paragraphs ( a ) to ( c ) of subsection (1) relates, granted between 19 November 2008 and the date of commencement of this section and in force shall stand revoked.

Munsterlad102 - Mellor really hit the nail on the head. It's not defined under Irish or EU legislation and can mean a lot of different things, whether it be those speed loaders for magazines or something else.

Munsterlad102 - Also Cat A firearms are allowed to be kept that were licensed prior to the 31st of August 2019,

I missed that. Where is that in the Directive or SI? I read it that such Cateogry A firearms can no longer be applied for and stand revoked as and from 1st March 2019 and 1st September 2019 respectfully. Also the majority of Cat A firearms are prohibited from Civlian ownership, if not all, with Cat B firearms being the main "force" of firearms privately owned/licensed.

Munsterlad102 - and this covers CF SA rifles with a "loading device capacity" of over 10 rounds,

Munsterlad102 - and this sort of brings up an interesting scenario, if you have a license to possess 11+ round mags, how can you have said license revoked for being in possession of said magazines? Bit of a contradiction in the legislation.

Munsterlad102 - Let's not forget about compensation. I know we've discussed this in the past and you did explain it to me, but I still can't get my head around the EU saying that ownership of something can be revoked without compensation.

The EU issue directives which each member state must comply with using the EU directive as the minimum in terms of restrictiveness of any laws based on it. Hence why our EU brethren get to keep their 20 round mags and we don't. However your point has some validity. This is a rare occasion where the Irish Government outright banned an item. I suppose their thoughts were how many people actually have such magazines and are willing to go to court over, and this is a wild ass guess, a hundred Euro worth of property.

Seems very unconstitutional to me.

Munsterlad102 - Also the punishment for being in possession of these "loading devices" is having your firearms license revoked, so in other words anyone how doesn't have such a firearms license can own these.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118752277#Comment_118752277

Just to correct myself, you can use any mag in your non restricted CF rifle as the 10 round limit only refers to Cat B firearms which are mostly just CF SA and short firearms.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118756268#Comment_118756268

Yeah, nor is it defined under EU law. I emailed someone in the EU about that a while ago, someone in the relevant department who's name escapes me, and they didn't have a clue. Well when I think of loading device I think of something that's used to load magazines.

There is no restriction on capacity for restricted short firearms. The highest capacity mag I saw for a RF pistol was a 25 rounder for a Glock conversion kit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753268#Comment_118753268

Nope, you're forgetting about some things there Grizz.

Re 10 rounds: there is no magazine limit for non restricted CF long firearms, bar shotguns. There is no mention of any such cap under the 2008 order and there hasn't been any amendment to said order regarding those firearms. Same situation for restricted rimfire rifles and shotguns. The only 10 round mag restriction is for non restricted rimfire rifles and CF SA issued after the 31st August 2019.

The 10 round "loading device" restriction is only for Cat B firearms. I thought I misread the legislation there for a minute and had a mini heart attack, but thankfully I just missed something.

Re 20 round: no magazine limit as all can be Cat A as they were issued before the 31st August 2019 cut off date, ie semi auto pistols could be Cat A, whereas revolvers would be Cat B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118752457#Comment_118752457

Mellor really hit the nail on the head. It's not defined under Irish or EU legislation and can mean a lot of different things, whether it be those speed loaders for magazines or something else. Also Cat A firearms are allowed to be kept that were licensed prior to the 31st of August 2019, and this covers CF SA rifles with a "loading device capacity" of over 10 rounds, and this sort of brings up an interesting scenario, if you have a license to possess 11+ round mags, how can you have said license revoked for being in possession of said magazines? Bit of a contradiction in the legislation.

Let's not forget about compensation. I know we've discussed this in the past and you did explain it to me, but I still can't get my head around the EU saying that ownership of something can be revoked without compensation. Seems very unconstitutional to me. Also the punishment for being in possession of these "loading devices" is having your firearms license revoked, so in other words anyone how doesn't have such a firearms license can own these.

Obviously, the guys with the CF pistols are grandfather licenses (Pre-2009).

Are the 10 round 22 RF pistol on similar licenses? Presumably they are holding restricted pistol licenses. In which case would their limit be in theory (if a magazine was manufactured in that capacity). 20? 30?

Good question on the former. I'd ASSume that they would be under the same restrictions as a normal CF restricted pistol limits of possession etc. The only one that I've seen so far is definitely a .22 restricted license. As it stands they could use 20 round .22 pistol mags no problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118752457#Comment_118752457

I'd assume he is referring to the fact that "loading device" is not defined in Irish law.

I agree that it's a awkward choice of words, but I think you'd have a tough time selling the idea that it was referring to something other than magazines and the like. IIRC the US mag ban used the term "ammunition feeding device".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753268#Comment_118753268

Obviously the guys with the CF pistols are grandfather licenses (Pre-2009).

alanmc

Thanks lads for all the answers. Much appreciated. I really have no need for any more than 10 rounders anyway, so all good.

Let me give you the simplified version of all this.

In Ireland;

10 rounds for any LONG firearm, be it, CF or CF restricted, .22 rifled or shotgun is the legal limit. [Now in national legislation and EU directive]It is irrespective of whether the mag[ and talking CF here] is compatible with a semi-auto CF or a proprietary mag.

20 rounds for a CF pistol.No change

5 Rounds for a .22 pistol as a non-restricted firearm. [There are some freaks out there with restricted 10 round .22 pistols, but its not a norm so not one to be concerned about]

Under the directive and Irish law. You CANNOT now possess legally any magazine body, that is CAPABLE of holding more than 10 or 20 rounds respectively for any firearm that would fit in your possession. So even permanently blocking your SACF mag to ten rounds is illegal under the directive. It cannot be physically capable of having the space to hold more than 10/20 rounds inc the spring and follower and base plate.Only choice is if it is an original mag and unique, is to physically cut the mag in half and rework it to hold ten rounds only.

Simples🙄

Munsterlad102 - This isn't true. Technically no CF magazine is banned, only loading devices are but that doesn't mean anything.

Please elaborate on this. I'd be interested in your take, given the law on the matter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236249/non-restricted-license-and-mag-size-centre-fire

This isn't true. Technically no CF magazine is banned, only loading devices are but that doesn't mean anything. But if you're erring on the side of caution, only magazine that can be used in centrefire semi automatic rifles or pistols aren't allowed. So if your rifle uses AR mags, best to stick to the 10 rounders, but if it's a proprietary magazine you're in the clear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118749499#Comment_118749499

Thanks Cass. I forgot the 2009 CF pistol ban was via reference to the restricted SI rather than the affected pistols directly. I suppose intentional as it allows them relatively easy means up updated the impact of 2009 Act.

Mellor - Isn't 22 rimfire pistol, with a capacity of 6 or more, simply restricted rather than outright banned? Is it possible to get a restricted 22pistol license?

The limit for 22lr pistols is 5 rounds and no, its not possible to get a restricted license for one as the 2009 Act prohibits the issuing of restricted short firearm licenses. It makes no mention of it being rimfire or centrefire and as SI 21/2008 and 337/2009 (further amended but not changed by SI 391/2015) makes any 22lr pistol with a capability of holding more than 5 rounds restricted then it falls foul of the 2009 act of issuing a restricted short firearm license(s).

You are correct that prohibited does not mean outright banned as a Minster could issue such a license as I believe his/her office would be legally allowed to, but prohibited for our needs is as good as banned.

One of the few clear laws although it took four attempted to get there. Another example of poorly, and hastily, written law. One part of an Act, and three SIs for a single issue because they did not know what they were doing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118746706#Comment_118746706

I'd assume the FO was simply thinking of the previous condition where a >10 round limit was restricted on a RF but not on a CF (until it was subsequently banned). Presume the reason was down to SAs but it does seem like

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118748939#Comment_118748939

Isn't 22 rimfire pistol, with a capacity of 6 or more, simply restricted rather than outright banned? Is it possible to get a restricted 22pistol license?

tonysopprano

Paraphrasing now, but IRISH LAW (as amended by 2017 EU) states that any persons caught in possession of a magazine that can hold more than (20 for pistol) or more than (10 for rifle), for a FIREARMS CERTIFICATE they hold OF THE SAME CALIBRE, is F0CKED. ( EU allowed grandfathering, but of course Ireland didn't)

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236249/non-restricted-license-and-mag-size-centre-fire

Where have you been for the last 5 years?. As per EU law, pistol can have 20+, Rifle can have 10, exceptions for Sports Shooters, (no limit) (EXCEPT in IRELAND, pistols can have only 5, up to .22), not licenceable able above that), How you use them, up to you,(See CASS vs MELLOR), unless you want to send to eastern european country, then, anything allowed.

alanmc

OK, good to know. I'll stick witrh the 10 rounders so. Thanks Cass.