Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Non-restricted license and mag size (centre fire)

Options
13»

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭cosieman


    Easier to get a pistol than a restricted rifle legally




  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭BSA International




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    For the record, it's not that much more difficult to get a restricted rifle licence than an unrestriced firearms licence?

    The application form is the same, you just have to tick a different box. The major difference is that you'll have to put in a letter with your application explaining why you need 'that' firearm and why an unrestricted firearm won't do the same job. For example, if you wanted to shoot Gallery Rifle CF Lever action competitions, you need a centrefire lever action rifle so that's what you'd write in the letter with the application. It's not rocket science.

    You might get called for an interview by the Chief Super and you might not. You might get asked to increase your security and have it inspected by the Crime Prevention Officer or you might not, but that can happen with unrestricted firearms too.

    That's pretty much the only difference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    No ! It would make it a pistol,as thats what it was originally licensed and described and imported as. Whether it has a stock added or not is irrelevant! As we do not have a category in Irish law of "stocked pistols".The stock in this case is an accessory and does not turn the pistol permanently into a rifle as it is detachable. Same as the French Unique pistol/rifle combination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fFqh78orew

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭BSA International




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Well rather than look up the legislation yourself to "convince" yourself, here ya go:

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/si/21/made/en/print

    The section which defines a "short firearm" - means firearms either with a barrel not longer than 30 centimetres or whose overall length (including the length of any detachable component) does not exceed 60 centimetres;


    IE you buy a buckmark pistol with a barrel <30cm then unless you replace the barrel it will always be classed as a short firearm, since everything with a barrel of less than 30cm OR an overall length of less than 60cm is a short firearm.


    Thus here a buckmark pistol with a stock(detachable or otherwise) remains to be a pistol(short firearm), so essentially you need a restricted licence for a longer barreled version, but the shorter one is non restricted(and limited to 5 rounds because pistol).

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I wouldn't like to be the one to test your theory that sticking a pistol into a rifle stock turns it into a rifle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Thing with the law is that it's always vague enough to convince you that your right 😀

    Unless it's been "tested" in a court situation it's all about opinions.

    I'd not want to be the test case 😀

    So if overall length of said Buckmark including detachable stock is less than 60cm it would appear you'd be OK.......So is it under 60cm?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45



    It' doesn't! If it was a pistol originally, it stays a pistol irrespective of removable components in the eyes of the law if it was originally registered as such.

    Whether you add a stock or not ,or a longer carbine barrel to make it more accurate in that configuration as these are all detachable components.

    The Buckmark carbine comes in a carbine configuration,if it has a detachable stock or not it is still a carbine. the Buckmark pistol is a pistol configuration,if you buy it as such and declare it on your license as such that's what AGS have it as,if you add a detachable stock and possibly a longer barrel,it is STILL because of its paperwork a pistol. No ifs or buts.However,if you were to say weld up the detachable stock and mount permantly the longer barrel.THEN you have tried to convert it,for whatever reason into a rifle.

    Same way as my Glock17 does not become a rifle[carbine more correctly] if I put it in a clamshell CAA Roni carbine kit.,or some of the lucky ones amongst us put their broom handle Mauser on their shoulder stock holster.

    It's the same reason the Unique .22 pistol/carbine set-up was still obtainable and licensable here during the TCO era. While they were registered as pistols originally ASFIK, by removing the critical component of the .22 barrel, they were relicensed as .22 rifles. Now post TCO, if you can find one complete its back to being a .22 pistol. And if you do find one let me know I've wanted one of those since I was a kid of 11 and saw one in Nestor bros shop in Limerick.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,140 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Yup, it's still a short firearm. The suggestion was that sticking a detachable stock onto it allows more rounds. Which is obviously no true. Possibly some confusion between the pistol version sand the rifle version - that is 850mm overall.

    Agree with most of that, but not all of it.

    It's irrelevant where the added parts are detachable or welded on. The definition of short firearm was posted above by @otmmyboy2 and clearly includes detectable parts. The Glock and Buck mark pistols, still meet the criteria of short firearm with a stock, so are still pistols. The barrel lenth defiens tham as pistols.

    However, then swapping in a carbine barrel (with the stock ) means it no longer meets the definition of short firearm - In short you'd have converted it carbine (long firearm). Carbine barrel on its own, different story.

    The firearms are defend by their size not the paper work - otherwise all sots of modifications would legal.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 39,140 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    As for the Unique Pistol/Carbine combo. I assume it needs separate licenses, like similar dual barrel firearms.

    Will let you know if i see one



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    A similar hypothetical: is a 223 bolt action rifle with an adjustable stock restricted or non restricted if its 95cm with the stock fully extended and 85cm fully retracted. Likewise, is a 223 bolt action rifle with a fixed stock restricted or non restricted even if you remove the stock to bring it below 90cm.

    Note: single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire firearms of a calibre not exceeding 7.62 millimetres (.308 inch) and whose overall length is greater than 90 centimetres,



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    On the former most countries measure with stock extended, but you can be sure they measure it closed here, because that's the more restrictive move :-P


    On the latter I suspect you'd be fine if you removed the stock and the rifle was under 90cm, simply because the implications otherwise are more than the doj, dpp and ags could handle (1000s of gun owners in court essentially, or mass conversion of their non restricted licences to restricted).

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,140 ✭✭✭✭Mellor



    If the stock is collapsed or removed for storage. I imagine that is fine. As the firearm is the required length when restricted? But if somebody shortened a rifle and was intending to use it. It would be restricted. Sane as any other restricted modification you could make.

    On the stock I think most sensible is to measured in the state it’s used in.

    Not sure why 1000s would be in court? There are not many rifles under 90cm out there. But maybe I’m misunderstanding.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Well consider that 90cm is ~35.5 inches, and if you have a rifle with a 20inch barrel(common enough) then, with the stock removed, for the rifle to remain over 90cm you would need an action with a length of 15.5 inches, which seems like a rather exceedingly long action.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,140 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    A 20” barrel rifle with the stock removed will in most cases be under <90cm. But I’m not following why you say the restricted rules wouldn’t apply? I don’t often see people at the range firing rifles without stocks.

    It seems like that’s exactly the kind of modification that would make a rifle restricted. As I said above, I don’t believe it would apply to a removing/folding a modular stock for storage or maintenance but only the rifle in use.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,445 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    The idea being that you have a rifle that you remove the stock(as in as part of a full disassembly or replacing the stock with another). You haven't then created a restricted rifle, at least I sincerely doubt it would be looked at as such, because if it was then 1000s of rifle owners would be in court if they ever changed their stock on their rifle for example.

    Hence by the letter of the law if you have such rifle under 90cm it is restricted, but any sane interpretation of the law would deem it to simply be a non restricted rifle with the stock removed, which was the hypothetical question posed.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,140 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Isn’t that covered the second paragraph? I suggested disassembly for storage, maintenance, changes, etc modification would be fine.

    It would only fall into the restricted category if somebody tried to shoot with a shorten rifle.

    Say a modular stock, fine to remove stock to change configuration. But turn up to the range with a stock less rifle, shooting from a pistol grip like Terminator. That’s probably were the restricted category comes into play.



  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭cosieman


    There is no laws against shoulder stocks for pistols in Ireland unlike our yank cousins



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Also no laws against getting a 22lr sbr with a proper stock.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭dalalada


    is it only a pistol under a certain length



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,140 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Certain overall length (60cm) AND certain barrel length (30cm).

    If one or the other is under it’s a shirt firearm (includes pistols and revolvers)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Big noise on about that right now,with Sleepy Joe and the ATF banning pistol brace attachments, saying they are now short-barrelled rifles.

    Also, if you have something antique like the Artillery Luger, Mauser, C96 and the Inglis Browning Hi-Power,you are good,as ATF classifies them as antiques.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Only specific named pistols are exempt and they’re fairly specific, so certain Browning Hi Powers are exempt and others aren’t.

    Yeah the whole SBR and SBS are a relic of an attempt to ban pistols in the 30s. Not as if it makes any difference when you can but an AR15 pistol upper on an AR15 lower with a stock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Yeah the Inglis Hi powers are exempt.They were the ones made in Canada or a short run of them from Leige before the Germans took over the plant in 1940. Easily recognised by the slot in the rear butt strap for the Mauser C96 style stock. or simple slab board& holster combo.

    Putting an AR pistol upper on an AR rifle lower in the US will get you a holiday in club Fed. As that is classified as a Short Barrelled Rifle [SBR] So unless you registered the lower as an SBR and paid the Feds 200$ ... Take the stock off it and buy it in a pistol configuration...Its fine and classified as a pistol... go figure.

    Anyway,here is a handy pic of what a pistol, rifle, and SBR are according to the ATF. Hope it helps.


    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



Advertisement