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you should just "GET OVER" ever owning a home says PP boss

123468

Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    There are two basic problems with Anglo sphere thinking:

    • A housing policy based on people taking on huge amounts of debt or relying on the public purse is a good idea
    • Owning your home equals wealth accumulation

    Statistics on home ownership from other countries are meaningless unless you take into account total wealth and quality of life. I very much doubt given the choice many would opt for the live style of a retired Romanian homeowner over a retired German renter.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    At end of day,they still voted for x,for whatever reason/mandate etc


    It bodes quite poorly for democracy the constant demands that it be ignored....i dont particularly support it either way (utd ireland prospects aside),always taught they could have negociated a deal,that amounted to leaving in name only,



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's getting a bit off topic now so I'll leave it there. Just wanted to point out that leaving the EU won't fix anything regarding housing.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    They voted for a red, white and blue Brexit and that is exactly what they got. They can have no complaints at all.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We are falling in house ownership and France etc. are staying the same. We do have a higher rate than Denmark, Germany and Austria but those are the lowest in the EU, and have been low for historical reasons.

    ireland looks like it’s falling about 1% a year so we are heading to be one of the lowest in the EU.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    whats this Anglo-sphere “thinking” all about? It’s certainly not pro house ownership.


    U.K. house ownership at 63% is even lower than Ireland. As is the US at 65%. Neither country are high by european standards. Neither is Australia at 66% or New Zealand is at 64%. What Anglo-sphere countries are now doing is inflating house prices to keep people from owning their house. I mean that’s what the PayPal executive is saying is the future. But it’s not the future in many European countries.

    the renter in Germany might be better off but that’s hand waving away facts about house ownership. In any case, as with Timberr’s post on page one, the idea is that Ireland has high house ownership and this is a European anomaly. It isn’t. Germany isn’t Europe and has a historically high rental situation for historical reasons. Ireland was 10th lowest in house ownership in 2019 (out of 35 European countries)

    from https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/

    the U.K. was 8th lowest. Both are falling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    You might say that about general elections with respect of a party having a broad mandate but Brexit was about supporting either remaining in the EU or leaving



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Good luck with hoping Irish people adopt a German attitude to home ownership.

    Countries and people's differ and that's just how it is



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There are Brexit threads. House ownership statistics have nothing to do with Brexit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Why single me out ?

    I replied to a poster who referred to the Brexit vote .


    I don't see Mod above you're name?



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You’ve got that wrong too. Ireland is heading towards German ownership rates, without the rental protection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Renters have tonnes of protection in Ireland, it's landlords who are sitting ducks ,hence the exodus despite record rents



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    They gave the government a blank cheque to implement whatever sort of Brexit it wanted. So they got exactly what they voted for. I think its good that they left by the way, it just wasn't working out and its better for everyone in my opinion.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nothing like Germany where people live for a lifetime years in an apartment. You can’t have a 50% rental market with people being tossed out because of a sale (so in Germany houses are sold with tenants attached).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Pathetic response. Tell that to the huge numbers of BAME British citizens who voted for Brexit that they are pandering to "White Nationalists".

    People like you haven't a clue, all you know is screaming racism



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    It will become much more common to have very long tenancies when individual landlords exit the market and most rentals are provided by large companies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    In Germany a rogue tenant doesn't get to live on for two year's having ceased paying rent ,nor do they get to walk away if they trash the place.


    No country protects delinquent tenants more than this one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    I wish Brexit hadn't happened but only because of Northern Ireland .

    I reckon the UK will be fine outside the EU, it's their choice.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    As I pointed out before. This is because the rental market is poorly regulated for tenants and landlords.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The left oppose eviction under any circumstances here, beit mortgage defaulters or deadbeat tenants not paying



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Racist? How exactly do you justify that?

    Accusations of racism are often used to justify attacks on perfectly reasonable discussion of immigration policy.

    I have never referred (directly or indirectly) to any race, ethnicity or nationality in this or any other discussion.

    Post edited by air on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Freedom of movement does not include residency as you state, there are conditions which must be met to avail of residency.

    I would suggest that these existing rules should be enforced in Ireland in much the same way as they are in other EU member states.

    I disagree that we "need" large volumes of non EU workers under a work permit system, we managed perfectly fine without these workers for the majority of hour history, what has changed now?

    LMAO, so we need immigrants to meet demand for housing that is brought about solely by immigration!

    You sound like the kind of person that would add workers to an overloaded ship to help bail out the water rushing in over the side as a result of its having too many people on board.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's bog standard racist dogwhistling and anyone can see it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    How is that racist nonsense? A desire for preservation of culture and a stable economy without it being under constant threat by uncontrolled, illegal immigration should be a perfectly valid standpoint to have.

    Illegal immigration hurts legal migrants the most so maybe you need a rethink of what's "racist nonsense"



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What’s your opinion on the shutdown of travel last year? As a fairly hysterical poster on covid I’m sure you were strongly pro. Given this closure of travel has been set as a precedent I’m sure we could imagine get out clauses within the EU common travel area for other reasons. In fact we have those already.

    anyway this thread is off topic. Will be be a majority renter society in the future or not? Is this a good thing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    I'm curious what happens in this fictional scenario.

    BattleCorp earns €50k per year. He pays €15k per year in rent which he can easily afford. He does this for 40 years and then he retires.

    Oh oh. BattleCorps pension is way less than he was on before he retired. BattleCorp's pension didn't do too well. He was unlucky that the stockmarket was down at the time he was retiring. His pension isn't too good. He now gets a pension income of €20k.

    Poor BattleCorp, his income is €20k and his rent is €15k.

    BattleCorp is Fcuked.


    Seriously though, renting all your life is ok until you hit retirement age. Unless you were lucky enough to squirrel away a 'hape' of money into your pension and it performed well, you are absolutely screwed because you most likely won't be able to afford your rent. What then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    "Dogwhistling " is such a dopey term and is applied like snuff at a wake



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    No we don’t. Some people on the left do.


    you do some fierce generalising about “the left”.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Freedom of movement does include freedom of residence actually. What rules are you talking about , you’re low on detail.


    We managed without immigrants for most of history because the economy was in the toilet for most of our history. This is deluded stuff. The type of thinking that ended in Brexit in the UK, which is an unmitigated disaster.


    We need immigrants to fuel the economy. It’s a fact of life

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    That poster isn’t talking about illegal immigration. That’s clear. They are talking about curbing all immigration, including from within the EU.


    I’m not sure it’s racist. It’s definitely small minded and possibly bigoted.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The poster wasn't talking about illegal immigration. He was talking about all immigrants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Economic migrants are flooding into the continent and are being normalised as if they are asylum seekers. The poster was suggesting that this is to the detriment of smaller countries of Europe, which it absolutely is. That is not racist.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The state with a decreasing tax base due to demographic changes will have to pick up the tab, either directly through social housing or indirectly through rent subsidies.

    In short if the state doesn't do something to avoid the situation now it's totally screwed in the not too distant future.

    If they do nothing now and nothing when the chickens come home to roost, increasingly desparate people will do increasingly desparate things. I hope it isn't allowed to come to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    You didn't look very hard, here is a brief summary

    • In order to stay in another EU country for more than three months, EU citizens have to meet certain conditions depending on their status (e.g. worker, student, etc.) and they may also be asked to comply with administrative formalities

    More detail on the EU's website

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/eu-citizenship/movement-and-residence_en

    There are zero of these "administrative formalities" in place in Ireland.


    I disagree with your assertion that we need immigrants to "fuel the economy".

    Our economic growth has bene relatively constant since the early 1970s and we had minimal inward migration for the vast majority of that period.

    It is well established that generally speaking immigration benefits the immigrants at the expense of worker in the native population.

    Of the professions you mentioned earlier:

    Doctors - A huge proportion of our medical places in both undergraduate and post graduate entry go to non national students.

    The universities are particularly keen on non-EU entrants which attract much higher fee income. We have turned education into just another industry, largely to the detriment of society. These same non EU entrants have much lower academic entry requirements than native students which is detrimental to the quality of doctors that we produce.

    We then go on to import doctors from many 3rd world economies, to the detriment of their own populations as they are left short of doctors. These same countries are likely to have lower standards of training than ourselves (how many of our brightest and best are going to these countries to study for example?) This together with language and communication challenges means these doctors are on balance likely to be less effective than a home trained local doctor.

    Why don't we increase the number of doctors that we train to meet demand? There is no shortage of willing and qualified students that would like to study medicine.

    Nurses - I would put forward the case that when the full life cycle cost of bringing in a non-EU nurse is accounted for, we would likely be better off increasing wages to increase retention of our existing domestic nursing profession. Nursing is not particularly well paid and any incoming nurse is likely to require housing support of some description.

    Engineers - Wages have been almost static for the past 15 years or so, which aligns pretty closely with when inward migration really took off. Immigration has simply been used as a tool by which to keep wages depressed, the same as many other sectors of the economy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Thanks, I'm really racking up the accolades today, A bigot and a racist, on quite a roll!

    The population of the EU is around 450 million, Ireland is a small nation of 5 million people.

    In theory there is nothing to stop say 1 million people moving to Ireland tomorrow and taking up residence.

    I'm of the opinion that there should be some hard limits placed on freedom of residency such that the influx of new people each year is limited.

    The limit should be to such a level that can be absorbed both by our infrastructure - housing, schools, roads etc. and socially, so as to avoid the creation of foreign mono cultural ghettos. Many of have been established all over the UK and Europe in previous decades.

    Multi-culturalism has created many social issues across Europe to date and yet we think that we will avoid all these issues despite having zero policy in place to protect against it and a horrific track record in dealing with our own home grown social issues.

    I'm a huge fan of the EU and the freedom it allows, and have travelled to very many of it's member states.

    It's beauty lies in it's diversity and if we allow rapid mixing of populations between member states we will certainly lose all the vibrant languages and cultures within it which make it so great. We will just become another homogenous federalist monoculture like the USA.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dunno if it is planned. Rich people and corporations run society though. Ireland has no real economic centre left party.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Or… he has an economic objection. The 4 pillars of the European Union are neoliberal concepts.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Whats the point of having immigrants here to "fuel the economy",if we/it cant provide living wage jobs and reasonably priced accomandation for them??


    We have 2nd highest rate of low-pay in the oecd,and a housing situation bordering on farcial.....i know several poles etc gone home,here with 10 plus years,married kids etc etc and the rate of pay-rent and cost of living made it better for em to move home


    These are people,who by every right should aspire to prosper here and gain home ownership/security of tenure that council houses would provide.....instead they are leaving,to be replaced by further waves of immigration,who will enjoy lower and lower qualitys of life here.......


    build the houses/jobs before talking about wanting immigramts to ram in 8-10 in a house on min wage to line pockets of landlords in the guise of fueling an economy....its a fundamentally failed idea



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,684 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't know what they were motivated by; I haven't suggested that I do. Their action in voting for Brexit pandered to white racism; their motives for pandering to white racism are a separate matter.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If I had a missus and kids I’d 100% have a mortgage now.

    Im lucky enough to be living with friends in my late 20’s paying 350 for an en-suite room.

    I have no shame moving back to the parents if I need to. I earn 55K salary with extra 15k in bonus and overtime.

    I just don’t think a mortgage is for me as ties me down and wouldn’t like living on my own

    I might move to Europe or work or take a year off who knows



  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭divillybit


    I agree with HerrKuehn here, people in their 20's starting into their working career need to be conscious that they will be looking to buy a place once they are in their 30's so they have a good 10 years to build up a substantial chunk of change. Once you get into the habit of saving as much as you can every month and investing it wisely it does grow into a substantial sum. I guess it depends on what people want to sacrifice though, if you decide to go travelling for a year in your 20's its a year of savings lost, which is perfectly acceptable of course.


    personally I didn't do any of that, opting instead to work and progress my career. It worked out well for me and despite being on the average industrial wage I was able to buy my new build house without having to borrow much at all from the bank, and i didn't borrow from any family members either.

    I do genuinely have sympathy for first time buyer's in the present market, particularly single people. I got lucky and bought at the bottom of the market when a recovery was happening in the economy after the 2008 housing crash. In the 6 years I have owned the house, it has effectively doubled (175k to 340k, Midlands town) in value based on what my next door neighbours house, who had bought at the same time as I did and has recently sold her house for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Poland is doing very well. I don't see why we should expect people to stay in this country. If they have worked and made their money, and now their home country is doing well, fair play if they want to go back.

    same as many Irish did over the years.

    That's the beauty of immigration, go, stay, whatever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,684 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't see why. If the Brexit campaign urges a vote for Brexit to keep dark-skinned migrants out - and they did, pretty much, urge exactly that - then voting as urged is pandering to their racism. The voter may have done so for other reasons but, as I say, your reasons for pandering to white racism don't change the fact that you are pandering to white racism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Again, arbitrary interpretation- cherry picking party campaign information to reach a conclusion

    Could just as easy say those who voted for Michael D were pandering to third World dictators ( miggeldy spoke positively of Castro)



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think its entirely reasonable to expect people who have set up life here,have kids etc here to aspire to home ownership/get a council house for the lower paid immigrants


    Poland may be doing well,and fair play to em.....but they had families,good ties here and the state/economy here simply wasnt able to provide properly for em,and to my eyes thats utter failure and lads wanting immigrants to come here to live a lower quality of life,than what we aspire for ourselves,to 'fuel the economy' have their prioirties very very misguided imo



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If they want to yes, nothing wrong with them coming here making lots of money and bringing it home, if they want to.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Noone said there is any issue with this??.....just they should be expected to have a lower standred of living than what we aspire for ourselves?


    Whats the whole point of this economic success/progress if it isnt improving peoples lives and requiring an influx of immigrants to live on lower quality of life to sustain/"fuel" it??


    We have a situation here,where low paid immigrants,many of whom id regard as mates,cant aspire to put down roots here/or hope to prosper for them and their kids.....its an utter waste of time perpetuating this



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Don't suppose you asked the parents if they'd be happy to have you back?!



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