Would you be happy for your children to receive covid-19 vaccine

13-12-2021 10:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313271#Comment_118313271

What are you even talking about now? 😄

All I'll say is you're not convincing anyone of anything. Nobody cares if you get jabbed. Likewise you shouldn't worry about other people.

Have a good day anyway, Donald. We miss you in the White House 😄

Wibbs · 13-12-2021 10:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313284#Comment_118313284

I was waiting for your obsession with "scroungers" and dole heads. On a thread about a virus. Never change. 😁

faceman · 13-12-2021 11:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313015#Comment_118313015

Man up and stand up for your children. There is no data available as to what the long term effects of the vaccine are, with regards to children.

This gets thrown around a lot, and its usually a copy & paste job given its an over riding theme of the anti science brigade. Which is fair enough, it seems like a viable argument. Its also used as part of the "Ive done my research" spiel too.

Only its not.

Anyone in the know with vaccines or anyone who has done research will point out 2 things:

In the history of vaccines, the overwhelming majority of side effects are known within the first 2 months.
The reason why other vaccines take years to develop is because you need a suitable size of trial patients to test a vaccine on. The pandemic left us with no shortage of covid volunteers, and in fact the covid vaccines have the largest trial sample in the history of any vaccine. The chances of a side effect not being picked up by the 44,000 people who were part of the Pfizer trial is rare. And that's just the Pfizer trial.

Donald Trump · 13-12-2021 11:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313397#Comment_118313397

Except I didn't mention "dole" in that one Wibbs.

Scoungers gonna scrounge. They'll sit back and let everyone else do their bit while the scrounger sits up on their backs. Regardless of the issue at hand.

It's up to yourself how you feel. If you love lockdowns and severe restrictions then you're going to be actively against vaccinations and masks. That's subjective to each person.

Wibbs · 13-12-2021 12:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313512#Comment_118313512

Scoungers gonna scrounge. They'll sit back and let everyone else do their bit while the scrounger sits up on their backs. Regardless of the issue at hand.

OK you're positively obsessed with "scroungers".

It's up to yourself how you feel. If you love lockdowns and severe restrictions then you're going to be actively against vaccinations and masks. That's subjective to each person.

I've been 100% behind masks from the get go, even when the government were feeding us contradictory ballsology on them. We needed the first lockdowns to keep spread to a minimum and it worked. These days I'm much more on the side of vaccinate the vulnerable(after 94% of the adult population has been already vaccinated), cocoon those who can't be vaccinated and open up society again. I 100% welcome the vaccines too, though of late feel we're getting too focused on antibody levels and keeping them constantly high with what will likely be a continuous booster programme going on current vaccines anyway. Rather than look at and rely more upon immune memory in the non vulnerable population, unless a variant shows up which actually evades that.

Donald Trump · 13-12-2021 12:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313900#Comment_118313900

I meant "you" in the general sense - not "you, Wibbs". I was unclear in my post, although I did qualify the last sentence with "each person" rather than "you".

Wibbs · 13-12-2021 12:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313944#Comment_118313944

The loss of the "Ye" in english was a loss indeed. 😁

Donald Trump · 13-12-2021 12:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313986#Comment_118313986

Well "ye" would still encompass "you".

I could have used "one", but would have ran the risk of appearing pretentious given the medium of boards.ie

TaurenDruid · 13-12-2021 12:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313015#Comment_118313015

Well, the end of that post certainly took an unexpected turn! 🤣

spaceHopper · 13-12-2021 01:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304324#Comment_118304324

Without stating the total number of cases the figure 212 is meaningless, 212 out of 10000 is 2% out of 100K is 0.2% we need the full picture. Also if covid was such a risk to kids you'd think they would have done more to stop its spread in schools.

Bass Reeves · 13-12-2021 02:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314353#Comment_118314353

I was not commenting on the overall number. Rather I was point out to the missconnception that only children with underlying conditions were being hospitalised. When you disallow the not reported figures 85 % of children hospitalised have no underlying condition.

TaurenDruid · 13-12-2021 02:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314353#Comment_118314353

They should have, but they didn't, because that would involve either a) actually properly funding schools to put in air filters and monitors (I've seen estimates of €70 to €90 million for that); and b) funding an active and working contact tracing system, so that parents/teachers/SNAs of close contacts could be properly informed. And then there's the unspoken implication of the necessity of closing classrooms and/or full schools where there's a big outbreak, but IBEC and ISME wouldn't be up for that because then parents would need to WFH/help teach their kids.

MilkyToast · 13-12-2021 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313475#Comment_118313475

While your two points are true:

"The history of vaccines" is somewhat irrelevant here, since mRNA vaccines are delivering the genetic material required to cause your body's cells to produce and express a modified version of one spike protein (antigen). Every other vaccine has directly induced the antigen into the injection site.
While it's true that no development steps were "skipped", they were run concurrently, meaning that the time from phase 1 trials to broad deployment was very contracted compared to a "normal" vaccine development. The only remedy for this is the passage of time.
Of the vaccine-hesitant people I've spoken to who are not "Bill Gates is trying to chip me" types or crunchy earth mother types, (and in my own case) the hesitation comes from concerns around the potential for lipid nanoparticles (the particles used to encapsulate the delicate mRNA and move it across the cell membrane before it can be destroyed) to cause long-term autoimmune issues, particularly with repeated doses. This is what scuppered Moderna's pre-vaccine efforts in mRNA therapeutics, for example. The risk is probably minimal given the length of time between doses, but the data on tissue tropism is not complete and it's not yet possible to say whether any long-term effects will result and if so, how common they might be.

When that is the concern and you're stacking up an unknown long-term risk for a healthy child who has 80 years left to live and has effectively zero risk of long-term effects from Covid, "Every other vaccine was fine!" is not a good argument, and nor is an appeal to possibly maybe for a little while reduce the risk to the elderly and infirm.

I'm sure that mRNA technology is the future in terms of vaccination, and likely to revolutionise broader medicine in ways as-yet unimaginable. But as of this moment, I am not prepared to allow it to be used on my children.

Give me a more traditional vaccine sans LNPs and I'll skip off the the clinic and pull their sleeves up happily, just as I have for every other vaccine they've been offered.

Lumen · 13-12-2021 03:05PM

When that is the concern and you're stacking up an unknown long-term risk for a healthy child who has 80 years left to live and has effectively zero risk of long-term effects from Covid

Where is the evidence for "effectively zero risk of long-term effects from Covid"?

CruelSummer · 13-12-2021 03:23PM

I think it’s worth pointing out that there were only approx 1600 children given the actual shot in the Pfizer trial - the others were given a placebo. This information is all out there.

Also worth noting that Pfizer are refusing to release their vaccine data submission, which was requested in a freedom of information request to the FDA - for initially 55 years and are now requesting 75 years off the courts. Nothing says trust the science like hiding data from the public until we’re all dead and buried.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/wait-what-fda-wants-55-years-process-foia-request-over-vaccine-data-2021-11-18/

Marty Bird · 13-12-2021 03:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315136#Comment_118315136

CS I don’t know if you seen this, Pfizer did release some data last week regarding adverse events up to Feb 2021.

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

MilkyToast · 13-12-2021 05:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314963#Comment_118314963

I mean, sure, it is possible that Covid will cause some sort of long-term and long-lasting health issues in healthy children who get it, but there's no evidence of it right now and I would put the chances of it at much lower than the (also unknown) long term risk of repeated doses of never-before-used LNPs. Especially when factoring in the waning efficacy of vaccines and the necessity to repeat the dose an as-yet-unknown number of times, the known prior issues with LNPs, and the fact that there are very few viral diseases that cause long-term issues that arise later, none of which are coronaviruses.

I also don't see why a vaccinated-then-infected child would be less likely to get these long-term, long-lasting, as-yet-unseen issues over an unvaccinated-then-infected child, given the rarity of severe disease in children. It would depend on the mechanism by which the long-term issues came about.

I'm not saying I'm right, or that I think it's probable that LNPs will cause long-term issues. I'm saying that for me, right now, the balance of the unknowns and knowns is stacking up on the side of holding off.

Other people's mileage will obviously differ, and they should make their own decisions about vaccinating their children. Nobody knows what will happen in the long-term for sure, and I'm definitely not going to judge anyone who decides that they think their best option is to get their children vaccinated just because I happen to have an "idiosyncrasy", as Wibbs put it earlier.

faceman · 13-12-2021 06:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314650#Comment_118314650

Your concern is based upon 1 study, that isn't peer reviewed, that also has a major conflict of interest where dissuaded interest in vaccines is in their organisation's benefit. It also worth noting that its quite normal for vaccines to affect immune responses in unknown pathogens. When you drill in to their date, you'll find their hypothesis is questionable based on their numbers anyway.

Also there are parallels with the BCG vaccine, which also reprograms the immune system.

astrofool · 13-12-2021 06:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315136#Comment_118315136

Why do you keep posting about the FDA data? The data is being released, there is just mountains of it (a good thing) which takes time to prepare but it is being released all the time (and the estimate was based on document count and number of people assigned to work on it, so it won't actually take 55 years), you can ask for similar from the EMA.

The plaintiffs' request covers some 329,000 pages, which must first be processed and redacted before the FDA can hand them over, Department of Justice (DOJ) lawyers representing the regulator stated in court documents.

The group asked the FDA to satisfy their request by no later than March 3, 2022, giving the agency the same 108 days "from when Pfizer started producing the records for licensure on May 07, 2021, to when the product was licensed on August 23, 2021."

To meet that deadline, the FDA would need to process some 80,000 pages a month. That simply isn't feasible, the DOJ lawyers argued.

Are you saying that something untoward has happened within the FDA to cause this? If so, what is it, without going the innuendo route.

I think it’s worth pointing out that there were only approx 1600 children given the actual shot in the Pfizer trial - the others were given a placebo. This information is all out there.

Was the trial ran incorrectly? What is a normal medical safety trial size for adolescents where the medicine has already been pre-approved for adults?

TaurenDruid · 13-12-2021 06:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316016#Comment_118316016

but there's no evidence of it right now and I would put the chances of it at much lower than the (also unknown) long term risk of repeated doses of never-before-used LNPs.

Based on what, exactly? Medical qualifications? Or just a random punt?

the fact that there are very few viral diseases that cause long-term issues that arise later, none of which are coronaviruses.

The various Long-COVID clinics are, presumably, just money-making rackets? And the Long-COVID facebook groups are just full of hypochondriacs?

Admittedly I've not heard of many cases of kids being unwell, long-term, post-COVID, but they certainly do exist.

Lumen · 13-12-2021 06:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316016#Comment_118316016

But given that we're essentially hand-waving at two sets of unknowns, isn't it worth considering what the knowns are?

The knowns are that in the short term, being vaccinated has a lower incidence of severe side-effects in pre-adolescent children than getting infected and recovering (MIS-C).

I don't see the grounds for your belief that the reverse is more likely in the long term.

CruelSummer · 13-12-2021 06:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316278#Comment_118316278

Imagine trying to justify a pharmaceutical company hiding their data for 75 years, and defend them on here day in day out, all the while some countries are attempting to mandate this product.

It doesn’t take 75 years to release data, no amount of nonsense you post can explain that one away. You’re actually stating that it’s ok that it would take more than a lifetime to release the data that only took weeks to submit to the FDA and EMA and for the FDA and EMA to go through to authorise their product.

1600 is far too small for the trial for children, they’re also incorporating data in from other age groups despite a different dosage & ingredient in the children’s vaccine. It states this clearly in the submission data.

How many boosters do you think would be safe for the population? Where are the double blinded trials to show it’s safe to keep getting mRNA injections?

Do you think teenagers and children should be boosted also?

astrofool · 13-12-2021 07:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316420#Comment_118316420

Explain why, I've quoted the number of pages and the reasons the FDA is releasing the data how it is, should they spend all their budget on releasing documents? And again, outline why you think this is happening, what are they hiding? There is a separate submission to the EMA, have you asked them for the data yet?

The FDA is not a pharmaceutical company.

What is the correct size for the trial? I presume you have precedence for trials for other medicines to fall back on here.

If the EMA determines that boosters for teenagers and children should be approved, would you disagree with them? On what scientific grounds would you do so?

You have an opportunity here to present your data and back it up, it does not need hyperbolae, let evidence do the talking.

We know that the risk/benefit of the SARS-COV2 vaccine is greater than the MenB vaccine that posters on here went out of their way to get for their children, should we give the MenB vaccine to children or not?

Donald Trump · 13-12-2021 08:13PM

"egoists, paranoiacs and fascists" according to Fintan

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-the-three-anti-vaccine-types-egoists-paranoiacs-and-fascists-1.4749235?

MilkyToast · 13-12-2021 08:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316294#Comment_118316294

I know you don't, and I knew you wouldn't. I was answering your question, not seeking your approval. I've explained my position, you disagree with me. Neither of us have definitive answers and we both grant different weight to unknowns. I'm comfortable with that and you will learn to be.

Have a good evening.

hometruths · 13-12-2021 08:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313475#Comment_118313475

Anyone in the know with vaccines or anyone who has done research will point out 2 things:

I think it is safe to assume NIAC are in the know with vaccines and interestingly they feel the need to point out the caveat:

More than four million first doses and approximately 450,000 second doses have been given to children in this age group in the US. 35 No immediate safety issues have been notified but follow up time has been short.

faceman · 13-12-2021 08:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316818#Comment_118316818

What has NIAC's advice been again for kids and the vaccine?

Recommendations

COVID-19 vaccination is strongly recommended for those aged 5 to 11 years:

with underlying conditions
living with a younger child with complex medical needs
living with a person who is immunocompromised
This group should be offered vaccination with the same priority as booster doses for those aged 16 to 49 years with an underlying condition.
COVID-19 vaccination should be offered to all other children aged 5 to 11 years because of the favourable benefit risk profile of the vaccine, to protect them from severe disease, the consequences that can follow infection e.g., multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS- C), long COVID, psychosocial and developmental impacts.
As this is a primary vaccination course, this group should be offered vaccination with the same priority as booster doses for those under 40 years of age.
For children aged 5 to 11 years, the recommended COVID-19 vaccine is Comirnaty. The dose and schedule of Comirnaty for this age group is 10 micrograms, two doses three weeks apart.
Children aged 5 to 11 years who are severely immunocompromised should be given a third dose of Comirnaty at least 28 days after the second dose to complete the primary series.
Before vaccination, parents or guardians should be informed of the known benefits, risks and uncertainties of COVID-19 vaccination.
The decision to accept, defer or refuse vaccination for a child should be respected.
Every effort should be made to avoid any adverse impact from the COVID-19 vaccination programme for children aged 5 to 11 years on the routine primary childhood and school immunisation programmes.

hometruths · 13-12-2021 08:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316913#Comment_118316913

Pretty straightforward. They strongly recommend the immunocompromised kids and those kids close to immunocompromised should be vaccinated.

And they recommend all other kids should be offered it. They do not state a position on whether that offer should be accepted or not.

But rather they stress parents should make up their own minds, and point out that study size is too small to measure rare side effects like myocarditis, and that follow up times to identify safety issues has been short.

As a parent of a 5 year old who has read NIACs recommendations, it's not a difficult decision. My kid won't be getting the vaccine.

Lumen · 13-12-2021 09:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316800#Comment_118316800

Apart from the condescension, I'm fine with that. 😀

CruelSummer · 13-12-2021 09:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316486#Comment_118316486

So instead of answering as to why it only took a few weeks for the FDA and EMA to review all the data and grant approval - yet they’re claiming it’s going to take 75 YEARS to release this same data, you dug the hole further and entrenched yourself in your and their position. You should apply for a job as Pfizer / Moderna PR rep.

Then the classic throw 40 pointless questions to try and derail the facts as they stand.

The simple fact of the matter is mRNA vaccines long term data is unknown because we haven’t had the time to study it. Dispatches on Channel 4 Friday, you’d also have serious concerns as to the accuracy of the data from the Pfizer trial. How do we know there isn’t the same type of corner cutting in other company’s trials? You’re basing all your posts on these trial results, that is in the company’s interest to make look very good, it’s like RTÉ over the weekend using a Pfizer press release as good news about booster data. That’s not factual - it’s a PR release of a company advertising its product.

Would you be happy for your children to receive covid-19 vaccine

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