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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭BuildTheWall


    Can all this talk of myocarditis that’s been clogging up the thread the last few pages go to the vaccine thread please?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Not if you stick your fingers in your ears and shout lalalala and pretend it's not happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The nytimes articles limits to 3 (unless you go cookie clearing), but the risk seems to be highest for post pubescent males, the doctors mention studies but I ran out before finding the source data:

    Covid-19 and Children: How Often Do Vaccines Cause Heart Problems? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Conspiracy theorists posited that certain things would happen to gain control over the populace for nefarious reasons that they can't explain.

    The fact that some of those things happen (with many of the openly discussed multiple times such as passports, mandates and masking) doesn't mean the theorist was right unless they can explain the nefarious reason (you'll notice none of them never elaborate on what they were right about as it usual is about "control" or "resetting society" or something, reaction to an evolving pandemic isn't listed).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Who made the new strain? For what reasons? What is the end goal?

    Did anyone publicly or on the forums deny that new strains would come into existence?

    There isn't enough data on omicron so far but signs from Pfizer indicate the current vaccine would be fine albeit at lowered efficacy, what's your prediction so it's on record before being officially announced?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I dunno about all this now At first I was buying into it. Get vaccinated and it will all be over soon.

    Now I'm thinking governments worldwide and Nphet are one dimensional in their approach and not seeing the overall picture

    I'm mostly following the UK as they're ahead of the game compared to us here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,459 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    You have to have your head right up your arse at this stage to be still coming out with conspiracy theorist jibes.

    But then a lot people believe that identity politics is an issue for someone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Jesus some of the posts in here today. Isn't there a conspiracy theory forum for this stuff?



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭BuildTheWall


    Seems to me "Conspiracy Theory" is just a catch all term to dismiss some uncomfortable home truths people don't like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭copeyhagen


    what happened omicron A?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Is there anything to be said for another vaccine?

    Because these ones appear to be utter shite.

    Honestly at this stage I feel completely deceived. Get vaccinated and we all get back to normal, we mostly do and we start introducing more restrictions.

    We've numerous reports coming in that this strain doesn't appear to be worse and we've governments crapping themselves.

    Now it seems tomorrow hulahoop is going to recommend more restrictions. I mean what in the actual ****?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Given the fact though that the vaccines don't work anywhere near as well as we were lead to believe, and aren't stopping the virus in any meaningful way (not even in hospitalisation and deaths after a few months), the question is...why ? Why are they so desperate for everyone to sign up for the vaccination subscription plan and get them into the system of electronic passes just to live life?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,459 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Quick, people are starting to think for themselves.. remove their choice



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Theres also the timing issue. Covid is seasonal. It spikes every winter, and starts dying down every spring. What exactly will be the point in bringing in mandatory vaccinations when the winter is already over? By spring hospitals across Europe won't be under strain any more, so it loses any (thin to begin with) logic surely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,748 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    They can take the credit then. A lot of these measures seem to brought in when the surge has already reached its peak. It will decline anyway even without restrictions and forced shots. Florida and other US states have shown this. Hopefully this winter is the last major surge, last chance to justify "health" passes surely



  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭darconio


    Imagine believing any of this is still about stopping a virus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,644 ✭✭✭Penfailed


    Gigs '24 - Ben Ottewell and Ian Ball (Gomez), The Jesus & Mary Chain, The Smashing Pumpkins/Weezer, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Stendhal Festival, Forest Fest, Electric Picnic, Pixies, Ride, Therapy?, Public Service Broadcasting, IDLES(x2), And So I Watch You From Afar



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    By the same thing that’s cuases it when triggered by a virus. Inflammatory immune response



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’d say she’s as surprised and disappointed as you are that what was only her « personal opinion » is being reported all over Europe and will now set the tone for EU policy discussion. How was she to know ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    - When did the people elect Ursela Von Der Leyen to influence policy for us? Never.

    - As @Red Silurian pointed out, our Constitution protects bodily integrity. Varadker even said so himself. Any sort of mandates are a no-go. Full stop.

    - Disband NPHET. Useless waste of money. Tony Holohan presiding over a disaster. History repeating.

    - Paid propaganda media are a disgrace.

    - RTE have been sponsored by Pfizer (yes, this is a fact).

    - No "New Normal" or whatever weird bs our politicans are talking about. There is only normal, and abnormal.

    - Any Irish politicians advocating segregation, discrimination, or division amongst our people need to be removed. They no longer serve us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 348 ✭✭Timmy O Toole


    Our constitution also protects freedom of movement, freedom to earn a living ect does is not ? Seems anything unconstitutional is OK in the name of public health



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Shilock


    I was thinking the same, they told us get vaccinated and your life will get back to normal. You're protecting yourself and everyone else. Then when we went over herd immunity it still wasn't enough. They were on the media blaming the unvaccinated, but the unvaccinated were all out doing their own thing and staying away from cinemas, cafés, pub's restaurants etc

    Us vaccinated were out pubbing, eating out mingling inside and outside establishments not a care in the world and we're supposed to be shaming the unvaccinated. Then I started to wake up and smell the coffee. I'm blaming others for something that had no evidence apart from people on the media suggesting oh it has to be the unvaccinated.. Seen fit people catch the virus who were double vaccinated, then get quite ill.

    They got over it but still their double shot didn't protect them or their immediate families.

    I cannot blame anyone else if I catch the virus only myself for not taking risk assessments.

    Keep my hands clean, socially distance and stay away from gatherings.

    But sadly there's people out there who are out drinking and and messing, not practicing the guidelines and spreading it. Now there's no point in blaming the unvaccinated at this stage because I think they had enough and it's plain to see we'll have to get to brass tact's and accept that vaccination or no vaccination Covid doesn't discriminate.

    It'll get you no matter what....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,782 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,132 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    So, I see NPHET models confirm that vaccines give waning immunity while previous infections give permanent immunity.

    I don't understand therefore why recovery certs should last for only 6 months nor why previously recovered people should ever get a vaccine.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,918 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    If they wanted an accurate model (that's debatable) but they could be assuming that 75% of the population are fully vaccinated and 75% of those recovered would be fully vaccinated, so recovered and double vaccinated, meaning for the assumption of the model they don't have to account for waining in the recovered group.

    Probably make more sence lobbing them in with those boostered (assuming they account for that, who knows though)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,009 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Ya, they've pretty much rode roughshod over it so far, so I wouldn't take that bodily autonomy stuff as them being unable to do mandatory vaccinations.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its an assumption in a model, not a stated fact. The level of waning following infection is not really understood. Its the same mechanism as with the vaccine though, so it will happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I think you lost your compass a bit. Its a conspiracy theory when its outrageously unlikely and requires some strange mental gyrations for its prediction. Whether you believe it will happen or not is one thing but its hardly in the crazy stuff corner still.



  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭watchingfromafar


    Actually not completely. Natural immunity from infection triggers multiple different responses. Immunity isn't all antibodies

    T-Cell immunity, Mucosal immunity


    Anecdotally, I got covid 5 months ago. People I work with hadn't got it but had all been vaccinated. They are slowly dropping like flies to covid infections. Meanwhile I am fine. I also go out and interact socially far more than they do.

    We also have a massive case study that was Sarscov1. Immunity from natural infection lasting up to 17 years.

    The vaccines aren't as good as hoped.

    The best thing to happen now would be for all vaccinated people to catch a mild dose and reach a better level of immunity

    That is why we should get rid of all restrictions. Let everyone get the mild dose and move on.

    Vaccines stop hospitalisations and deaths right? then we should okay



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I will defer to the Lancet on this:

    In this study we have inferred phylogenetic relationships among the human-infecting coronaviruses, demonstrating that a phylogenetic analysis of the ancestral and descendent states can inform our understanding of virus-specific waning of antibodies post-infection, the probability of infection at a given antibody level, and the distribution of likely times to reinfection. Our analyses show that both the waning antibody profiles and the probabilities of infection at a given antibody level are heterogeneous among human-infecting coronaviruses. Quantifying both of these parameters by ancestral and descendent states analysis enabled us to infer a timescale to likely reinfection for each coronavirus. Reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 under endemic conditions would likely occur between 3 and 63 months after peak antibody response, with a median of 16 months. This protection is of less than half the duration revealed for the endemic coronaviruses circulating among humans.

    So a bit longer than vaccine but subject to similar waning. The good news though is the whether natural or vaccine induced, effectiveness against serious illness will remain robust. It is also likely that booster immunity will be longer - repeated exposure produces better immune response - for example polio vaccines require 4 doses for maximum efficacy



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Important to note that the Townsend et al estimate of immune durability from SARS-CoV-2 infection is based on mathematical modelling and is, as admitted by the authors, severely limited by a dearth of reliable data for the other coronaviruses used for comparison, particularly SARS-CoV and MERS, the closest known coronavirus relatives of SARS-CoV-2, as well as being limited to antibody analysis, with no consideration for B- or T-cell mediated immunity in the longer term.

    This is the first pandemic where mathematical modelling has been used in real time and as we've seen from previous efforts to predict case numbers and so on, there will be huge failures to be learned from.

    Your last point is solid. It's believed that most of the circulating human-infecting coronaviruses started like SARS-CoV-2, affecting older/sicker people much more severely and younger people hardly at all, but leaving behind B- and T- cell mediated immunity such that later infections are more easily dealt with and therefore milder. By the time you've gone through a decade or two of the virus being endemic you end up with a population that has contracted the coronavirus in early life and had disease that presents as a common cold, and the next time they contract the same virus a good few years later after antibody waning, their B- and T-cell mediated immunity kicks in and they get a mild dose. So in (relatively) short order you have a population for whom the coronavirus infection is an annoying and occasionally repeating inconvenience but not serious (unless they are very old and/or very sick - the very rare cases that can currently get taken out by the common cold). We can only hope.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭Need a Username


    Is there going to be another lockdown this month?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,661 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Varadkar saying this morning he'd be skeptical about further restrictions while he defends a midnight closure of hospitality... Makes me wonder where he draws the line...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭corcaigh07


    Don't like some of the early noises from NPHET. Hospitality for the boosted only is on the cards I reckon.

    Chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan said Nphet would be meeting on Thursday to consider whether further restrictions were necessary, “mindful of Delta and the uncertainty around the Omicron variant”.

    “If we could see extensive use of the vaccine pass, whether mandated or voluntary, all of that would give us greater assurance in relation to protection and prevention of transmission,” he said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭celt262


    Can't see it happening they should leave things the way they are and bring back contact tracing in school.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,302 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    Well that ain't a runner given the level of boosting we currently have.

    The extensive use of vaccine pass he refers to is the recommendation to use it in gyms and personal services. It's been recommended twice in the last 3 weeks and turned down by government each time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭corcaigh07


    I wouldn't be so sure, we had division between vaxxed and unvaxxed during the summer and it was the young who were left outside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,302 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    Bit of a difference in doing that when the 20s were getting vaccines and when its over 60s getting boosters.

    At that point everyone was eligible to get a vaccine, not everyone can get a booster at this point



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭corcaigh07


    I had to wait about a month to get the cert the first time and I'm in my upper 30s. I got the jabs asap.

    Plus NPHET don't care and it's a way for the Government to keep pubs open without more wage subsidies.

    Don't like it, why not have a lovely pint outside instead with the rest of the non 3 jabs scum?

    (I don't think it'll quite happen today but it's not far off)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Leo wakes up in the morning phones his PR people and finds which way the wind is blowing and goes with that. There's more substance of policy in a box of corn flakes than his head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,929 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    And this is also the problem. Why are Tony and NPHET giving press/radio interviews at all. It's obviously to try to pressure/force the Government's hand in advance of the decisions - either Micheal hasn't realised how weak this makes him look, or he can't control Holohan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,823 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    The government allows it, that's the main issue for me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,929 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    If she's really THAT naïve, she has no business being in that job. She's standing at a podium giving an interview. Of course everything she says is going to be reported - including her "personal" opinion (which some might also call kite-flying/groundwork-laying)

    But as I have said previously here and elsewhere, it is more evidence of the EUs overreach into the average citizen's lives. Ah I miss when it was just a trade body!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,929 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    The Government nowadays is the Cabinet, and even then a subset of that group for many key issues.

    That's an even bigger issue in itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭dominatinMC




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    It suits them to hide behind NPHET. It avoids them having to make any decisions and absolves them of any responsibility.

    NPHET has been established with such a narrow frame of reference and stuffed with a narrow band of 'experts'. it is guaranteed to spit out a simple answer to every question around Covid - 'more restrictions'

    The Government don't want to be presented with a range of options - then they'd have to make a decision and do the job they're paid to do - govern.

    I can already hear the testimony in the future tribunals which will be set up to investigate the chronic mismanagement of the response to Covid - "We were following the best advice available".

    Meanwhile Dr Tony and his nodding dogs will just say they were only ever 'advising.'

    They'll all sail off on cushy pensions and nobody will ever be held accountable.

    Meanwhile our Grandkids will be still paying back the bill for this nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,888 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,661 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    On Freedom of movement

    Article 40.4 states that “no citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law"

    Meaning legislators can make it law that you have to stay within 2 or 5km of your home, similar to the constitutionality of MHQ where people can be stuck in a hotel room

    On the right to a livelihood.

    Article 45.2 states that the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs.

    That, in a nutshell, is why the PUP exists. The 350/week is considered "reasonable provision"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,644 ✭✭✭Penfailed


    I really don't think there will be tribunals about the Covid response. If there is, it'll be a complete waste of money.

    Gigs '24 - Ben Ottewell and Ian Ball (Gomez), The Jesus & Mary Chain, The Smashing Pumpkins/Weezer, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Stendhal Festival, Forest Fest, Electric Picnic, Pixies, Ride, Therapy?, Public Service Broadcasting, IDLES(x2), And So I Watch You From Afar



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