United Ireland Poll - please vote

Brucie Bonus · 30-11-2021 5:12pm

Being Irish means our nationality is never a burden. It’s the opposite. It lifts us up, it provides a sense of belonging and, in the darkest of times, it gives us a feeling of hope. To me being Irish simply means that you are someone who calls Ireland “home”.

Well said.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 5:13pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57761935

Here we go again, the Alliance Party calling out, with facts and evidence, the misguided opposition of Sinn Fein to integrated education.

If Paisley hadn't come up with the phrase, "Not an inch", Sinn Fein would be making it their own.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246194#Comment_118246194

I can only assume that the party position is unchanged. If their support for integrated education had changed they'd likely pull that document.

Brucie Bonus · 30-11-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246194#Comment_118246194

Do you think policy has a 'best before' date?

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246198#Comment_118246198

We're getting close to your sit around peacefully until Unionists and the British get around to giving you your full rights, equality and parity of esteem.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246217#Comment_118246217

I dunno Blanch but i just don't see that facts and evidence you allege.

The article you linked contains a statement from the former SF Education Minister John O'Dowd "Mr O'Dowd said there was little provision in the sector for the Irish language or Gaelic games", which mirrors the concerns SF expressed in that 1995 document.

Followed by personal anecdotes from Alliance Party Kellie Armstrong "In terms of promoting the Irish language and Gaelic games, Ms Armstrong, her party's integrated schools spokesperson, said: "Integrated schools already do this.".

Anecdotes are not really evidence. SF John O'Dowd had commissioned a review of the integrated education by the Department and it said:

-There are currently 65 integrated schools in Northern Ireland, attended by 6.9% of pupils.

-The first, Lagan College, opened in Belfast in 1981.

-Forty-one per cent of integrated school pupils are from a Protestant background and 36% are from a Catholic background.

-However, the report reveals that 32 integrated schools have fewer than 30% of pupils drawn from the minority community in their area.

-Four of those have fewer than 10% of pupils from the minority community.

He also found that there was 1 school that offered the Irish language.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246347#Comment_118246347

However, the report reveals that 32 integrated schools have fewer than 30% of pupils drawn from the minority community in their area.

And this is a criticism, how? Mathematically, less than 50% of the pupils will be from the minority community, many of the minority communities will be a lot less than 50%, so surely having fewer than 30% of pupils drawn from the minority community can only be a criticism where you have established that the minority community is more than 30%!!!!

It is there in black and white. Sinn Fein have paid lip service to integrated education but their actions show they oppose it, the academic analysis shows they oppose it.

One person can pull out a policy from 1995 and another can claim that it is still current. If I recall correctly, around that time Sinn Fein policy also thought that killing people was ok, kneecapping them was part of normal business, and there was no problem moving sex abusers to another jurisdiction and giving them a job. Are all those policies current, too?

Anyone trying to claim Sinn Fein favour integrated education is flogging a dead horse, and would be better off quietly changing the subject rather than further embarrassing themselves.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246401#Comment_118246401

Every single 'academic study' will tell you what the core problem is and why the education 'system' reflects to core issues.

This study is nearer to the truth of why it is how it is and look blanch...it doesn't feel the need to mention the Shinners as the boogeymen and women!

As is usually the case the situation is a lot more complex than one of your frivolous political point scoring jaunts.

Such hostility can only be explained by tracing the historical origins of the Northern Irish educational system. This approach allows us to go beyond the internal polarisation of society to consider external factors, such as the influence of the English system, which contributed greatly to the peculiarities of Irish education. Whereas in the rest of Europe the state became the only national institution capable of maintaining an efficient educational infrastructure, in England the churches long retained power within a fragmented system. The historical reluctance of the British government to intervene in education helps explain the difficulty encountered by the unionist government. Although by prioritising the requests of the churches the government finally accorded preferential treatment to the Protestant community at the expense of the Catholic one, its plans initially contrasted with those of its supporters. As Londonderry’s reform tried to impose state control, the Protestant churches complained and later negotiated, while the Catholic Church simply rejected any interference in education. The three parties had different interests. In the end, the government not only overlooked nationalist requests, but also ignored bodies, such as teachers’ unions, whose demands did not merely reflect their religious affiliation, thus reiterating its commitment to denominational education.

Full article: Reforming education in post-partition Northern Ireland: state control and churches’ interference (tandfonline.com)

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246589#Comment_118246589

So you are falling back on a 1920s historian to justify Sinn Fein opposition to educational integration in 2021. Oh dear, oh dear, if this wasn't such a sad issue, that post would have me creasing up with laughter for days. Stop living in the past, Francie. Stop dreaming the dreams of yesterday's men (and yes, they were men not women with those dreams).

Time to face up to the challenge of what can be done today.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246749#Comment_118246749

Are you ever going to move beyond the kneeerk 'the shinners are responsible for everything'?

The situation regarding education is complex and has long roots...see above. Also see below, the Shinners do NOT oppose integrated education.

In the case of Sinn Féin – and as highlighted above – the party has had an almost indifferent approach to integrated education and does not explicitly refer critically to integrated education along the lines of the DUP but argues for parental choice, whilst maintaining that the integrated sector should be properly resourced (Sinn Féin, 2007). Since then, Sinn Féin has focused on issues such as academic selection and continued its argument for retaining parental choice alongside vigorous support for Irish Medium education and a more cautious and implicit support for integrated education (see the Local Government Manifesto 2014 and Assembly Election Manifesto 2016 (Sinn Féin, 2014, 2016)). While the DUP could be perceived as defender of the Controlled Sector, Sinn Féin has expressed support for the Maintained and Irish Medium sectors as well as parental choice, and Sinn Féin has also focused extensively on ending academic selection at age 11. The Sinn Féin politician, Martin McGuinness, as Minister for Education, also moved to address some parents’ fears that his party favoured the ultimate integration of all Catholic and Protestant schools and referred to being in favour of choice: ‘If people want to educate their children through the medium of Catholic education or Protestant education or integrated schools, I believe that they have the right to do that’ (BBC, 1999).

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246898#Comment_118246898

Right at the end of your quotation, McGuinness defends the right of sectarians to send their children to sectarian based schools. If the North is ever to move on, sectarian-based education needs to end.

landofthetree · 30-11-2021 10:14pm

Its pretty simple for United Irelanders.

Go out and get 50% of the vote in the assembly elections in March.

Then a poll will happen. Otherwise you just have to live with it.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247929#Comment_118247929

Now you are getting sinister.

McGuinness defends 'choice' blanch. The same choice parents have here and everywhere there are religious schools.

Branding parents (not to mention teachers and school managements) now, as 'sectarian' because they choose a religious school is deeply deeply sinister.

The 'right of sectarians'...lordy lordy.

Are you going to withdraw 'SF are against integrated education'? Or is that lie going to stand?

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247968#Comment_118247968

Think McGuinness is back in the good old days of the Deep South when good white parents could send their good white children to good white schools by choice. That is the sort of choice that Sinn Fein are seeking to preserve.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247992#Comment_118247992

So what's the plan then blanch...frogmarch parents and children into schools they don't want to go to?

Guess what that reminds me off?

Are you going to withdraw, 'SF are against integrated education' or are you going to let that lie stand?

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247956#Comment_118247956

A UI poll can only happen if the British Secretary of State for NI decides to hold one. The numbers in the NI Assembly don't come into it. Personally i'd like to wait 5 years or so before one, and would also like to see more public opinion sampling that shows a favourable result.

Having said that it will take at minimum a change of government in the UK and probably some external pressure. The British don't leave colonies very willingly.

starkid · 01-12-2021 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244366#Comment_118244366

again i can't seriously reply to that if you're going to ignore the polls and research done. google any article on the issue and you will find hundreds of people arguing the cold dead hands line. you can dress that up as a strawman or anecdotal. but its clearly not. there's a real possibility it will cause huge splits. SF, irish parties and the country itself. hopefully we are mature enough to deal with it.

everything is a strawman if you set it up that way. Clearly division in a United ireland is real live possibility. to ignore that, is well just plain ignorant. So i'm not sure how its strawman. i'm not refuting anything. i'm setting out a clear line of what is at this stage nearly inevitable. again to throw back your you can only have an opinion if you live in said place, i live in the southern nationalist enclave of Ballybough. a straw poll of most residents here would probably be majority against compromise, they wouldprobably look at you with two heads if you talked about removing flags, anthems etc.

who is talking about a veto? the realpolitik of it is violence, division, hatred and whole towns outside of influence. What Unionism did to the nationalist population was awful and deep down i think many irish people are angry about it. myself included. and there will always be a part of people saying take your commumpance. but i recognise its hugely complex.

You seem level headed about it all. that's great. hopefully there's many more like yourself. But as i said i know people from non nationalist backgrounds who would be against losing flags and anthems etc.

as for the eire nua document, i'm well aware of it. and who saids this debate has to be anything refreshed. its going to be a constant battle to push it.

but eire nua is a case in point. it split the party. the exact same thing will happen in any United Ireland debate. its inevitable. people who deny these issues are living in cloud cuckoo land.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249349#Comment_118249349

No the Eire Nua document didn't split the party. It was the decision to abandon abstentionism in RoI and NI that did it.

Additionally starkid, tough talk on the internet is easy. But actually committing oneself to engage a campaign of violence even within a low-level conflict, is a life long commitment that very very few will make. With no safe haven border to nip across and work from, Loyalists lack the necessary ingredients for a sustained campaign. When you consider that their violence during the troubles was largely directed, supported and assisted by British intelligence services, which won't exist after a UI referendum, they haven't a hope. It's called a bluff, and it will get louder the closer to a poll we get.

blanch152 · 01-12-2021 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249427#Comment_118249427

So, because they can't and won't get violent, we should ignore their opinion. Got it, pretty much the byword for exclusionary nationalism.

blanch152 · 01-12-2021 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248012#Comment_118248012

It isn't a lie, Francie. They are against integrated education and I have presented the evidence.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249506#Comment_118249506

Their opinion counts as strong as their numbers blanch. That's usually the way democracy works.

Tell us blanch, in your opinion, should Loyalists get special representation in the context of a UI? I mean in excess of their numbers. Does threatening violence mean you get more seats or get a veto?

starkid · 01-12-2021 10:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249427#Comment_118249427

eh yeah it did. Republican Sf was set up as a result.

i already said they won't wage a terror campaign. it could be in other forms. How do people really envision say AGS rocking up in Bangor, for instance? many people haven't thought this through at all. You can google the designated no go areas for French police for an example of other types of non co-operation and the effect they have on communities. i mean obviously you can use NI as an example itself in the bogside or whatnot. but in a normal country like France, police are told not to go to certain areas. And yeah its religious, but its also an identity issue. Similar to NI. thats the future of a UI in my opinion. The odd rogue bomb threat as well i'd envision. Nobody thought a Michael Stone could exist, but he did. there's always one. They will be losing their identity. some hardliners will be a dangerous foe.

A united Ireland will be decades of issues and upheavel and costs, and referendums, and divisions. Hence why its not happening any time soon. We need the old hardline guard gone from both sides and we need the moderates and centre to really form and begin real debates.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249601#Comment_118249601

The "AGS" you refer to in Bangor (lots of assumptions there) would be the very same police personnel that service that area currently.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249548#Comment_118249548

so its a pure numbers exercise? wow that'll work.

as we see with Brexit, democracy by numbers doesn't always work , no.

They shouldn't have a veto. But i think its fairly simple what could happen. A seperate police entiy. A new flag. Two anthems/new anthem. Dual capitals. Dual celebrations. Symbolic allowance of Union jack in certain communities. Recognition of unionist history. Allowing self identity as British, just like nationalists today. A federal system for NI just like many countries have for their breakaway provinces like in Italy, Spain, France and many more.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249655#Comment_118249655

82.5 per cent of the population of Bangor is protestant. Now yeah out of that 82 per cent how many are hardline. could be zero, could be 80. i don't know. but its naive to think the day a UI comes the gardai just switch with PSNI.

how are the AGS the same as the PSNI btw?