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United Ireland Poll - please vote

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  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ starkid


    you are missing the point. and your answer is typical of what i'm talking about. the roles will be reversed in so far a large part of a population with an identity being surpressed. A unionist by its very nature wants to be in a Union with Britain. the same today where a Republican has zero affiliation with the UK, but wants to be Irish. Just as NI accommadates Nationalism, so too will any UI have to accommoadate a British identity. But we have many people in this country who have a deeply ingrained (and preverse) bitterness of Britishness. and lots of people will say so what...who cares about their identity...well then you know what..Ireland will always be divided.

    In a United Ireland how do you square this? any society facing a loss of identity wil lfight tooth and nail. How would gardai be acepted in unionist towns? simple answer is that they wouldn't. The tri color is their butchers apron. the orange means nothing to many of them.

    Now if we were mature, and looked at new symbolisms, then maybe maybe we can do it. but your answer is just one of many i'd guess belying the massive problems we face.

    And anyway theres a new generation of wealthy Catholics. Also there's multiple thousands of impoverished protestants today.

    and people are being truly naive if they think hardline Unionists wouldn't go back to violence and true hate. to what end is there any violence? And the same with Republicans faced with their symbols being taken. i see that already happening here in the inner city, with many turning to the nationalist party.

    They wouldn't have the capacity for terror campaigns but i'd wager large sections of NI in any UI situation would be quasi British enclaves, ungovernable by any Republic.

    Flags, gardai, language, anthems, capitals, names, heroes, holidays and the very Republic are all in the line of fire. If people can accept massive upheavels, well then maybe a UI happens. if you can't you might as well buy a few lotto tickets as a UI with a 50 per cent plus 1 type of vote won't be good for this Island and i'd wager won't ever happen.

    The like it or lump it brigade, or just emigrate brigade don't want a UNited Ireland. cause thats not UNited. thats the same system they wanted. we're no better if thats the truth of it.

    and people wil lsay the above is anecdotal. Well lets parse the info as best we can. Boards, the journal, reddit, polls, tv debates, radio etc. there's plenty of superficial evidence that this is a widespread issue. talking of the protestant ascendancy just kind of underlines that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    After a successful UI vote, all the big players are on the same side. Government of Ireland, British government, PSNI, AGS, British intelligence services, British army, Irish army etc etc. All resources there to give effect to the constitutional change. Unionist violence in that scenario is not possible.

    The British government are now, to use an old phrase, to become the persuaders. Their task is to deliver their Loyalists proxies peacefully. That is the way it will go down. The USA will have Ireland's back and hold British feet to that fire.


    The rest of your post is just off the mark. I don't give a fiddlers about the flag or the anthem, nor am I in any way attached to AGS. Heck they should be dissolved if I had my way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,147 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly


    The primary reason behind partition is a divided people. The partition itself was inevitable. Even 100 years later there are still some folks that deny this.

    One of the main reasons why people are divided is the segregated nature of its schools. Fix that, there is hope for the future... but I can see why you don't want to fix it. You would rather talk about sending Unionists off back to Britain in boats or some other such nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ starkid


    yeah fine im not saying you are personally, but many people are. so no its not wide of the mark.

    as for the first part, how is UNionist violence not possible? when we still have sectarian violence today?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭ Fionn1952


    I'm actually fully in favour of integrated education myself, and no issue whatsoever with people having an opinion. My issue isn’t with the sharing of opinions (and certainly isn't with integrated education), it is with the patronising insistence from some that they know better despite not having the actual lived experience of some of those people they're suggesting just don't understand.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,147 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly


    I find it kinda hilarious in some way that when the controversy about the founding of NI was taking place, we had plenty of armchair republicans puff out their chests and proclaim how proud they were of their president....

    .... yet the same president calls out the insanity of segregated education in the North... and the same armchair Republicans go... 'Look! Over There!!'


    Speaking on the Late Late Show, Mr Higgins remarked, ‘Who in 2021 can justify the teaching of children separately on the basis of belief?’ He also stated that such policies were abandoning children ‘to parcels of hate and memory that others are manipulating’. His words came in response to a recent spike in inter-communal violence on the streets of Northern Ireland, some of which has reportedly involved children as young as twelve.


    Who indeed. Bigots on both sides I guess who want to keep the divide going for basic political purposes. We can see it on this very thread!



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    The vested interests which are very invested in maintaining the status quo would therefore be strongly opposed to a united Ireland for those very same reasons, so if you are supportive of a united Ireland, it would be in your interest to depower and dismantle the vested interests now that would oppose a united Ireland should a border poll ever happen. That once again makes it very strange why Sinn Fein cling on to the model of sectarian education in the North.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    Loyalist paramilitaries are known to British Intelligence services. There will be a lot of eyes on NI around a UI referendum and thereafter. Any violence that occurs from those quarters is a British responsibility, and they will know that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    SF don't run NI Assembly by themselves.

    If you are so bothered by the segregated education system that operates in NI, why aren't you directing your ire at the British that created it, and the unionists that have been in power since?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Oh, as I said already, the DUP and SF are the two sides of the same sectarian coin that are preserving the sectarian education system. They have been called out for it in the Assembly by the Greens, the SDLP and the Alliance.

    Change is coming to Northern Ireland, just not the change that Sinn Fein or the DUP expect.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    When exactly did the SDLP call for ending religious schooling in NI? Afterall they were the largest nationalist party in NI for decades.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭ Fionn1952


    That suits me; I've lived in both. Grew up in the North, married and settled, 'down south', so clearly everyone should just defer to me.

    Jokes aside, to actually address your point; if a bloke from North Antrim who had spent a few hours in Drogheda once five years ago started telling someone in Dublin how they should vote and patronisingly insisting that they just don't understand what it is like in Ireland, I'd happily call that out too.

    Those arguing against, 'exclusionary Nationalism' are arguing against a strawman of their own creation, and ironically some have demonstrated a more exclusionary mentality than that they profess to be arguing against. Many Nationalists may well be unable to put themselves in the shoes of Unionists, but indeed many Nationalists (particularly those from NI) understand Unionism much better than those arguing on this thread who have never actually had a conversation with a typical middle class border county Unionist, let alone a hardline Loyalist from East Belfast.

    If in a United Ireland, the roles were simply reversed with regards to how the CNR community were treated upon the foundation of NI, I would vote against it. Pretending that anyone is arguing in favour of that is just another strawman. A handful of armchair Republicans in a pub shouting about how they'll take the flag and anthem from their cold dead hands are hardly representative of typical views. I fully accept the need to compromise and show outreach.

    If asked would I like to give up the flag/anthem in a poll, I'd answer no and you'd point to it as evidence that I'm unwilling to compromise, but despite not liking the idea of giving up the flag/anthem, I'd be entirely willing to do so if it made it easier for a significant minority in our new country. What I won't countenance is the professed ideas on here about a return to a Unionist veto on how we progress as a country, which is precisely what another poster on this thread has repeatedly suggested (and was probably the source of most of my sarcastic ire).



  • Registered Users Posts: 53,564 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady


    No it wasn't inevitable.

    Blaming it on schools, teachers etc is a cop out. Lazy and agenda driven.

    If Unionists were primarily responsible there wouldn't be a peep out of you guys.

    Fix the cause first then tackle education and religious control of it on an island wide basis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭ PeaSea


    This. A 1000 times this. As a "unionist" who now desires a united Ireland myself, it can only be done by persuasion. Trying to force (the "like it or lump it" policy) will not work, because Unionists are past masters at being stubborn when cornered. Half the battle is persuading current moderate Unionists that they are wanted in a UI, and tbh sometimes even on here I see very little of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 814 ✭✭✭ Choochtown



    ... and this is actually very very possible thanks to the DUP.

    The main party in the North is largely bigoted, homophobic and corrupt.

    Who wouldn't want to live in a country of tolerance and equality?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    There's nothing new in any of that, these are topics discussed decades ago. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Eire Nua document.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire_Nua



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    I checked out the SDLP policies on Education and there wasn't anything about a commitment to end religious ethos schooling. https://www.sdlp.ie/education

    Are you sure they actually have a such a position Blanch?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152



    Yes, it was in their 2016 manifesto. This comment on it is revealing:

    "The SDLP’s view is that the current DUP/Sinn Fein ‘Shared’ education model does not go far enough"

    Both telling in that it confirms that SDLP want more reform than SF, and that there are shared interests and goals on education between the DUP and SF.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Is there any serious entity out there still pushing that Eire Nua nonsense?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Partition was inevitable once nationalists wouldn't settle for Home Rule.

    Tackle education first, bring the next generation of young Northern Irish people to a common understanding of each other and heal division.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 53,564 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady


    So the SDLP don't want to end it either is what you are trying to say.


    With any problem...you treat the cause. Tinkering is wasting your time.

    Reform education island wide and end segregation everywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    No, that's not what I said, in fact, it is the opposite of what I have said. The SDLP do want to change things. Here is another academic perspective:

    "Ultimately, segregated education maintains education systems for both sides of the community meaning their identities are protected. For the DUP and Sinn Fein, this suits their main aim of protecting their own political and national identities as both believe that an integrated education system would erode this. Out of fear, which is something that unites both parties, our education system remains segregated."

    "To summarize the parties, the Alliance party is clearly the most supportive of integrated education, followed by the UUP as seen by both parties developing significant policies on the concept in their manifestos. The SDLP remains somewhere in the middle on this policy, with a change in policy for supporting integrated education in 2016 but are not very vocal in their support for it when implementing manifesto pledges. The DUP hasn’t changed their policy substantially, but have moved to support shared education and some high ranking party members have spoken out in favour of implementing integrated education. Sinn Fein ranks at the bottom with no significant policy support for integrated education and their actions when holding the Education ministry failed on encouraging integrated education."

    You know, that article pretty much agrees with everything I have posted on the issue. Sinn Fein's fear, as manifesting itself in the panicked responses to my consistent posting, is concentrating on the look over there defensive position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    From one of the linked articles:

    What depresses Fitzsimmons most is that this issue was recognised by Northern Ireland’s first Education Minister Lord Londonderry at the inception of the state – his Education Act which envisaged a single system for all was wrecked by an alliance of Catholic and Protestant churches who were appalled at the prospect.

    It's not really SF or DUP that are actively obstructing integrated education. It's the churches. The political parties will migrate their positions toward the votes, so if people cast their ballots to parties that make integrated education a central plank, then that's what will happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Eh, that reference was to 100 years ago. Still wallowing in the injustices of 100 years ago, and using them to justify sectarian practices today. Sorry, don't buy that.

    The second part of your post shows SF and the DUP to be populist followers of the loudest people, not something I disagree with, but I expect more from my politicians.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    Have you considered, that SF just don't have a strong policy on integrated education because it's not something people are concerned about on doorsteps? Imo belly aching about SF and 'integrated education' is essentially a middle class masturbatory exercise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    It's not that they don't have a strong policy on it, they do. They actively oppose it, as does the DUP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    I disagree. But it doesn't matter if you think that way. It's up to people to give their expression at the ballot box and currently they are largely voting for SF and the DUP. If people felt strongly about integrated education and voted that way, then i'd expect the parties to modify their positions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet


    Out of curiosity i searched out Sinn Fein's position on integrated education.

    Copy and paste below from https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16324

    In a nutshell, they support it! The problem they have is about curriculum. They are correct that such would be defined by Britain to the exclusion of an Irish pov.


    Integrated Education

    As we said earlier, Sinn Féin believes in secular education and in multi-denominational schools. However, we be-lieve it would be mistaken to confuse these norms with how the British government handles integrated education in the Six Counties. We have no quarrel whatever with those parents who choose to send their children to these schools, nor with those teachers who teach in them. They do so for the best of reasons. We can see some advan-tages and we are in favour of their being there as an option for parents.

    We would like to see the same resources now being given to integrated schools also being given to Irish language-medium schools.

    Central to any discussion of integrated education in Ire-land, and indeed of education generally, is the issue of the curriculum: the assumptions underlying it, who controls it and its goals. A shared curriculum must acknowledge our common Irishness and celebrate the diversity which enriches us all.

    The past absence of Irish history teaching and the ban-ning and neglect of the Irish language in the school cur-riculum has been at least as responsible for contributing to the problems of society in the North as the absence of integrated education. One of the reasons for the support for the Catholic Maintained Sector in nationalist areas is the fact that, historically, the authorities in the North tried to turn education into a weapon which reinforces the 'Britishness' of the State.

    The right-wing educational ethos of the British authorities, which is based on elitism and privilege, is anathema to the vast majority of teachers on this island, North and South.

    Would it not make sense to integrate the two state-systems of education on this island, as part of the process of bringing about true integration?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    If you go live in France, as an Irish person, your identity is not being suppressed.

    If that's a genuine concern, you must be equally livid for the Irish who did nothing but be on the wrong side of a partition they didn't ask for. Thats the undemocratic bully boy elephant in the room.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,965 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    A document from 1995!!!!!

    Come on, you can do better than that, if they really truly support it, and when every academic study says they don't. Show us something that they have done since their pious words in a submission to a forum in 1995.



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