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United Ireland Poll - please vote



  • Registered Users Posts: 59,533 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

    I don't defend the role of the church in anything Mark.

    I asked you to evidence a few claims you made.

    If a school is a 'Catholic' school by ethos or vice versa then that is 'segregated' education and the south and Britain are full of schools like that.

    What is it that is being taught in the North that is different to here or anywhere else? Can you see the accusation you are making about staff and school managements?

    Can you back that up along with the 'mainstream' claim and stop telling me what I am doing or not doing?

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    Oh, you would defend segregated schools then.

    I guess back in the day you would have defended the Alabama Board of Education in denying opening up their white schools to black children.

    Segregation is not good for society and especially for such a society in the North. It is one of the reasons why the community is so divided and segregated.

  • Registered Users Posts: 59,533 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

    I am not 'defending' anything alone several sensationalist claims have been made on here. I am asking you to tell me what it is Catholic or Protestant schools are teaching in the north that they aren't teaching in the rest of Ireland or in Britain.

    And whenever you can back up the 'mainstream' comment, that would be good too.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    You are defending it by your continual attempts to rebut my argument. It's inherent in your posts.

    My argument was not about the curriculum (I already said this) but about the nature of dividing kids by religion and packing them off to different schools their entire learning lives. If you think this is fine, then perhaps the issue is with you.

    Oh, most NI adults agree that schools should be de-segregated.....

  • Registered Users Posts: 59,533 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

    Read the first sentence. Tiresome Mark.

    You don't have an argument when you don't have any evidence of schools deepening the divide in the north.

    Once again it is a sensational soundbite so you can attack your boogeymen and women. YAWN.

    Get back to me when you have some facts.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly

    Segregated schools continue to divide children by their religion and its a nonsense to think that is OK and has no repercussions on the bigoted nature of the society there.

    Here is our Presidents remarks on the matter

    Speaking on the Late Late Show, Mr Higgins remarked, ‘Who in 2021 can justify the teaching of children separately on the basis of belief?’ He also stated that such policies were abandoning children ‘to parcels of hate and memory that others are manipulating’. His words came in response to a recent spike in inter-communal violence on the streets of Northern Ireland, some of which has reportedly involved children as young as twelve.

    Of course, you would defend such a policy, because it's you and you just want to argue for the sake of it.

    Would you argue in the same manner if it were about black children being allowed into all-white schools? You are coming across as an unreasonable and an out-of-touch dinosaur on this matter.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭ Harryd225

    This is true and the kids are not exactly being divided on religion, nobody gives a **** about religion anymore North or South, the division is based on what that person's religion entails meaning that one side wants Northern Ireland to be part of the UK and the other doesn't.

  • Registered Users Posts: 59,533 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

    I don't defend it here or in the north Mark.

    The 'divisive' issue in the north is partition that left a religious sectatian bigoted majority in control.

    The schools are a mnor issue in comparison to the century of damage that has done.

    The entire statelet failed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    Stop with the leading pejorative questions, and look at the clear evidence from academic research.

    "The structure of education in Northern Ireland reflects the deep sectarian divisions. Education effectively preserves and perpetuates division for future generations by separating children at a formative stage and inculcating them into a society that has normalised this segregation. If Northern Ireland is ever to break away from the toxic codes of contested identity, then sectoral barriers in education need to be made more porous."

    To take a religious analogy, those that deny the sectarian nature of education in Northern Ireland make Peter look like a truthsayer.

    Come off it Francie.

  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭ starkid

    and you are completely underestimating how many immature people live in Ireland. you are completely underplaying it.

    I know friends of mine, with no nationalist leanings who don't get Irelands call. And if you can't get the premise why its sung, then it makes you unlikely to get the concessions needed.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭ starkid

    i mean the fact he focuses on the wrong figure i gave, rather than the symbolism of divide that they still proffer, is telling. The point about the walls is that the idea that a UI is around the corner is a blatant lie. its not.

    The peacewalls are a constant, visual reminder that the divide is more real than lads like him would have you believe. Yeah i only visited Belfast a few eeks ago. it feels normal, i see GAA jerseys walking around openly. all fuzzy and warm feeling. i thought this is our second city. Ireland was damaged immensely when its second city was shorn from it. I had that fuzzy feeling until i went down the wrong road into the Union jacked part. Those areas will never accept a United Ireland peacefully. those reminders and people are all over NI. their identity dies when a UI happens. And people have and will die for those identities. Because its 2021..what that can't happen? Bullshit. its clear as day. but those wrapped up in the tricolor can't and won't see it.

    You don't have to have a huge leap of imagination to see that something like the Gardai can never have a presence in NI. it would always most likely have to be a seperate police force.

    thats just one example of a whole host of issues a UI would face. the roles would be reversed and we'd have loads of people both North and South willingly champion that. As i have always said fair play to SF for speaking out about that. but it doesn't seem to be a line they use much in my local area of Ballybough of course.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    These are basic preparatory steps that are necessary to make a United Ireland a possibility and to show that Northern Ireland is ready. That Sinn Fein are doing nothing in these areas in the North shows up how clearly they are wedded to the sectarian headcount approach, which for reasons of the emergence of the third minority is not going to yield a united Ireland.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,134 ✭✭✭ Furze99

    Well Sinn Féin are primarily interested up north in keeping themselves on top of the pile of voters that make up 'nationalists'. If that means sticking it to the DUP and unionism generally on a regular basis, that's just what they'll do to keep their high ground. Likewise the DUP have employed same tactics to keep their respective foot on the throat of unionist voters. There's no hope for change in the immediate future until the plain people of NI reject both and starting looking for cross community political representation. With both SF & DUP capable of ruthlessly supressing the emergence of same.

    There's a whole heap of work to be done north and south if we are ever to achieve that goal of a peaceful transition to some form of UI. I don't think anyone is ready for it yet at all.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭ Fionn1952

    And there we go with another few pages of lads who's experience with NI peaked with reading about it in the papers or visiting it for a weekend once telling people from there that they don't know what it is like in NI and they just don't understand the differences between the two would be offensive if it wasn't so laughable.

  • Registered Users Posts: 59,533 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

     reflects the deep sectarian divisions.

    So my priority is to fix the root cause of that. Which is? A century long sectarian bigoted statelet ignored and allowed to fester.

    No denial here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet

    Seriously Blanch?

    NI was founded on the basis of a simple sectarian headcount. The origins of that statelet are sectarian though and through, and so it will continue into perpetuity until that sin has been scrubbed from the island.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    You are no better then than the people who founded it on that basis, and in the 100 years since, you haven't grown beyond a simple sectarian count.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet

    The GFA locks NI assembly into the same paradigm of a sectarian headcount the statelet was founded on. It's a reality that you need to accept and deal with.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    The research has shown that you start with the education system, there are realms and realms of the stuff.

    Or this

    "The educational system in Northern Ireland is part of the reason that the society remains harshly divided 20 years after the Troubles, but changes to the system have the potential to move Northern Ireland towards increased social cohesion and harmony in a religiously and politically divided society."

    You are spouting nonsense Francie. Fix the education system, fix the sectarian divide.

    You don't want it to change for fear it stops the sectarian head count approach which you misguidingly have put your faith in.

  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    I grew up in a border town, spent a lot of time in the North. Have friends and family living there. Having mixed schools would be a great way to integrate the two communities.

    Why shouldn't people have an opinion?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    True, and that is the next thing that needs to change. However, the education system is more of a priority, because integrated and non-denominational education will help people realise how outdated and unnecessary that system is.

  • Registered Users Posts: 59,533 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

    How very power swap.

    ignore the cause and fiddle on the edges...hope to fix things but it is really only window dressing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    Fiddle on the edges????? Nonsense.

    Create the conditions that unite the people as the GFA and Constitution tell us to do. That is what I am asking, and that is where SF are failing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet

    Well you'll get no argument from me regarding non-denominal education as i am strictly secular.

    Its one of the possibilities i think, that we could build together within a 2nd Irish Republic (ROI 2.0).

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,013 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152

    I am all in favour of it, but why wait? The fabled promised land of an Ireland 2.0 depends on so many others, when there are changes that can be made today, North and South, that will make people's lives better, so why waste time on dreams that may never be fulfilled.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet

    How are you going to dis-assemble the current school system in NI? There are vested interests that are well, very invested in maintaining the status quo.

  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭ starkid

    did anybody say that? so only de locals know the score. so the reverse is true, people in NI shouldn't proffer any ideals on a United Ireland as they don't knwo the score down south? people living in NI know far more than me about the situation however if people are willing to rationalise away sectarian divide that clearly still exists they must be challenged.

    Utter codswollop. You don't have to be living on the Falls road to realise theres a myriad of issues facing any United Ireland.

    and i think any of the people arguing against the ignorance of exclusionary nationalism can see the points of views. hence our scepticism. Many nationalists are simply unable to put themselves into the shoes of unionists. In any United Ireland, the roles wil lbe reversed. you don't need to be a scholar or citizen of NI to see that ffs.

    again the unionists were mainly a sectarian bully boy with a majority. however taking the high road in any unification will be necassary, a sort of quasi revenge fantasy will do the Island no favours. Claiming that people down South shouldn't have a viewpoint is moronic, and against the GFA.

    Also i routinely challenge people here in the South about talking about NI as we don't know the place. I count myself blessed to not know anythign of such bitter, religiously driven divide. And of course its clear as day that is drying up. But there will be a large amount of people who will never ever accept a United Ireland. how do we deal with that? you've given a very mature response in fairness. I would wager there would be millions who wouldn't. go into any pub around my area and ask them if they would give up anthems, flags, the national side, two capitals.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭ BluePlanet

    The roles won't be reversed. The Protestant ascendancy within NI (also largely true in ROI) have had centuries of advantage, inherited wealth and privilege that won't be undone by a simple constitutional change.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭ Junkyard Tom

    The beginning point for fixing the problems in the northeast is the ending of UK jurisdiction in Ireland. The largest Unionist Party's behaviour as regards rights for women, LGBQT+ people, Irish Speakers, cooperation with all-Ireland bodies, leveraging the threat of Unionist terrorism, its incestuous relationship with the Orange Order, the grip of Free Presbyterian fundamentalism and so on, is all based on deep-seated hatred of 'them'uns' and the desire to prevent self-determination for Ireland.

    If almost your entire existence is predicated on preventing something, then when that something happens you cease to be relevant.

    As for unionist violence? For what? To what ends? No unionist majority in Derry or Belfast, no unionist majority any county is being predicted at the next census. After a pro-UI vote there will be no choice for former Unionists but to make the best of it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭ starkid

    you are missing the point. and your answer is typical of what i'm talking about. the roles will be reversed in so far a large part of a population with an identity being surpressed. A unionist by its very nature wants to be in a Union with Britain. the same today where a Republican has zero affiliation with the UK, but wants to be Irish. Just as NI accommadates Nationalism, so too will any UI have to accommoadate a British identity. But we have many people in this country who have a deeply ingrained (and preverse) bitterness of Britishness. and lots of people will say so what...who cares about their identity...well then you know what..Ireland will always be divided.

    In a United Ireland how do you square this? any society facing a loss of identity wil lfight tooth and nail. How would gardai be acepted in unionist towns? simple answer is that they wouldn't. The tri color is their butchers apron. the orange means nothing to many of them.

    Now if we were mature, and looked at new symbolisms, then maybe maybe we can do it. but your answer is just one of many i'd guess belying the massive problems we face.

    And anyway theres a new generation of wealthy Catholics. Also there's multiple thousands of impoverished protestants today.

    and people are being truly naive if they think hardline Unionists wouldn't go back to violence and true hate. to what end is there any violence? And the same with Republicans faced with their symbols being taken. i see that already happening here in the inner city, with many turning to the nationalist party.

    They wouldn't have the capacity for terror campaigns but i'd wager large sections of NI in any UI situation would be quasi British enclaves, ungovernable by any Republic.

    Flags, gardai, language, anthems, capitals, names, heroes, holidays and the very Republic are all in the line of fire. If people can accept massive upheavels, well then maybe a UI happens. if you can't you might as well buy a few lotto tickets as a UI with a 50 per cent plus 1 type of vote won't be good for this Island and i'd wager won't ever happen.

    The like it or lump it brigade, or just emigrate brigade don't want a UNited Ireland. cause thats not UNited. thats the same system they wanted. we're no better if thats the truth of it.

    and people wil lsay the above is anecdotal. Well lets parse the info as best we can. Boards, the journal, reddit, polls, tv debates, radio etc. there's plenty of superficial evidence that this is a widespread issue. talking of the protestant ascendancy just kind of underlines that.