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United Ireland Poll - please vote

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    exactly its so daft. i can't actually get my head around how people can be so naive to think its this simple. they've literally got two test cases in divison in the US and UK. was it Pluto who had a criticism of pure democracy. The ship of state. the captains in this instance are the moderates. we need these people to emerge.

    we have a poster saying the AGS is the same as the PSNI. mind boggling



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Personally I don't see a problem with pretty much any of that.

    Though i have my doubts a federal system for NI with dual Capitols would be sustainable, as it locks in duplication and then inefficiencies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    French police unions disagree with you there. https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-policing-without-consent-why-french-police-are-ill-equipped-to-reconquer-paris-suburbs

    again people missing the point. its going to be similar in any UI. constant battles like this.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Policing without consent does not equal a 'no go area'

    Police in many areas of many countries 'police without consent ' that's the job.

    And it has been like that in NI, forever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    ok cool, yeah thats what we need. i'm not a Republican really but a United Ireland could be a brilliant nation. you can see it in sport.

    And yeah a United Ireland will basically be mini partionism. Whatever is the most hardline unionist town in NI right now. picture yourself there in a United Ireland. will much have changed?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    ok sure, France doesn't have no go areas. the police unions are mistaken. and long before identity politics and fox hijacked these debates, the sensitive zones existed in French policy. its now not cool to mention it, i get it. you'll be accused of islamaphobia. but again your missing the point. some of these areas like the areas PSNI dont go to will be the issue in a UI. i mean it was a reply to somebody who spoke of terror campaigns when the issue of violence is brought up. it doesn't have to be a big campaign. it could be civil unrest and non coperation with bodies deemed as Republican.

    and yet in Ireland we have policing by consent basically hardwired into our police.

    and yeah i know its been like that. thats why i'm saying in my other posts, its obvious roles will be reversed in some areas, and in others the same issues will exist regardless of the name of police, in the poorest communities regardless of sides.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,280 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who do you see 'emerging' politically to fight your case if a border poll is announced?

    Who politically will advocate for a 'super majority'? Or for a de-facto re-partitioning?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    I honestly have no idea what would happen after a UI referedum in regards policing. I only have my own preferences, that and draw lessons from other times when there's been a hand-over from a major change. I advocate that both the PSNI and AGS disband and the members roll over into a new PSoI, probably modelled more like the PSNI, with civilian oversight, an ombudsman with teeth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    i have no idea. hence my belief a United Ireland is most likely beyond my lifetime. I'm 37. a border poll right now would most likely be rejected. and like some of us are arguing, we haven't began to scratch the surface of the issues. So if it somehow passed, we'd be up **** creek for at least 20 years. again it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to come up with many problems. even if you discount the violence aspect.

    SF back some of my proposals so we will see. but as i said living in Ballybough i think they are telling some people what they want to hear. I see a split emerging and a whole heap of Southern Nationalists joinging something like the Nationalist Party.

    I'd love to see a peaceful, United Ireland. It would instantly make Ireland a greater country. larger, two large cities, some of the Islands best geography, great people and culture. But its the same dream i have of Ireland winning the Rugby World Cup. its highly unlikely.

    As i think you said you are a rugby fan. the rugby team shows you the possibilities. but you also don't have to dig deep to find the true beliefs of Irish legends like Best or Trimble.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Totally misrepresenting my post. I put AGS in quotes for a reason.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    ok. so in the event of a United Ireland. what happens with the police? only one of many issues, but one rarely broached.

    IS it like the changing of the guard in 1922 in Dublin Castle. or do the PSNI tear off their old uniforms and leap into AGS standard issue.

    Or is it likely that the PSNI continues in some form or another and the police forces become a quasi joint operation.

    the latter is the most sensible and stable action.

    The whole issue with the gardai is deeper than just uniforms or symbolism. its in the name. the irish language and irish identity is all part of the issue. we are a defacto english speaking country yet call out police force guardians of the peace in Irish. again the name alone becomes a live issue. even before you get to the other issues. i couldn't give a **** if the gardai are called police. but there would be plenty who would be out marching if they dared touch that, even if they had deep hatred of the organisation. its just one of the many idiotic quirks of this basket case of a country (in identity terms)

    how do you see the police working in the event of a United Ireland? or indeed anybody on here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,280 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Northern Ireland by the simple stroke of a pen (the Protocol- keeping them in the EU and aligned with their natural hinterland) has already out performed the rest of the UK for the first time ever.

    The notion that they are inevitably 'deadweight' is being blown out of the water. The idea that there is something to fear will no longer be part of the partitionists arsenal.

    What I see happening very easily is the entire island being given the best of both worlds in a special arrangement with the UK.

    That would suit everyone...as everyone's goals will be satisfied:

    1. The rest of the EU have their border problem solved.
    2. The UK gets the Brexit it wants without the impediment caused by 'a disastrous for everyone' partition.
    3. Ireland gets the benefits of a cohesive island wide economy and the end of the problems caused by a disastrous partitiom
    4. Moderate Unionism gets a connection to the UK and a secure economic future in a modern state.

    So that only leaves belligerent Unionists and bitter partitionists. Judging from the fact that belligerent Unionism is only capable now of motivating young fellas to burning a few buses and themselves and partitionists have failed to find any political representation I reckon both will noisily disappear into the ether of disgruntlement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Nobody knows starkid, that would be entirely up for debate. We can only offer own preferences. There would have to be an interim governance system in place. Little point in not availing of the training that police recruits have.

    But these are details and nuances, such are not required in advance of a referendum.

    Ahead of the GFA the unionists attempted to embark on a similar road: Nothing is Agreed until Everything is Agreed. John Hume spoke of this attitude he encountered during Sunningdale and said it was basically obstructionist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    no i think they are required to be debated before any referendum. its not just some minor detail. to suggest otherwise is just preverse. we are seeing exactly what happens when not enough robust debate is put in right next door.

    theres is no equivalance in what i am setting out and what unionists are.

    God i can't actually have this debate today. i actually can't believe there is people who think something as major as police is just something that will be sorted after.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    yeah thats fair. i mean yeah its closer than at any time in history. and yes if moderate unionists can see that its actually working maybe they will cross the bridge so to speak.

    But deep down it still isn't getting to the issue of identity. i know a few moderate unionists. they are still unionists. thats their identity. they believe in the union of NI and UK. we have yet to test their level of tolerance.

    Yeah i hope to God a United Ireland could happen peacefully. and wow it would be amazing if they happily said yeah you know what keep the flag etc. thats the dream version.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,280 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You create a police force to police the entire island starkid...it ain't rocket science.

    What you cannot do is create a special force to police a certain community in a cetain way ust because you don't want to offend them or are to afraid to ask them to be democrats.

    We know what happens when police forces operate on behalf of one section of the community on this island...it was called the RUC, the UDR, the Black and Tans etc etc.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    No chance. Everyone holds the PSNI up like it some kind of wonder force it's not, far from it.

    But they say people get the police they deserve, so maybe you will get policing PSNI style.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Oh i didn't say Police is a minor detail, that's another of invention of yours. I don't have strong opinions about the architecture of the police, aside from civilian oversight and an ability to hold the police to account. I've already told you my preference is to disband the AGS, and obviously if NI is dissolved so too PSNI. What replaces them is something i'm open minded to. My gut tells me that in the modern world, collectively and in open debate, a modern, representative police service can be imagined.

    I put up a post i think a few days ago, where i expressed that to win a referendum, such as a UI referendum, we don't try and detail and flesh out every single issue beforehand. Rather we vote on a nebulous and lofty concept of a UI and basically put in place time limited structures where we later, flesh out those details.

    Yes, exactly like they won the Brexit referendum next door. And No, you cannot turn around and try and pretend i'm advocating Brexit as I do not. I only use the fairly recent Brexit referenda as an example of how to win a referenda on a big constitutional change.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Perhaps you don't understand, there are many areas in Ireland where police don't 'police by consent ' that doesn't mean they are not policed .

    Never mind your identity politics or islamaphobia, police are not afraid to go anywhere. There are no 'go go areas'

    PSNI are far from a perfect police force.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    eh yeah i think its fair to say that would be my preference. just change the gardai to police and the psni to police and yeah good to go.

    but it certainly won't be as easy as that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 66,280 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well of course it won't be 'easy' if you give people the expectation of specialist treatment.

    Imagine proposing that nationalists get a special police force to police them at any time in the last 100 years and you might grasp the absurdity of the notion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    no don't worry i get it. Irish police are established under a well worn path of policing by consent. which arguably leads us to many of our issues today. probably one of the most like that in the World. and yeah well there's plenty of places not properly policed in Ireland. i live in one such area.

    but yeah officially there is no no go areas anywhere. but of course there is defacto zones. French police won't go into certain areas without proper back up. Mayors of French towns and French publications and french police unions are all on record discussing this.

    again its going wildly away from what is the main point. policing in a United Ireland will be deeply complex. yet we have one poster saying basically, ah shure we'll figure it out after the border poll. its beyond ridiculous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    i'm sorry but the last part is just daft. its got no basis in reality or what will actually happen.

    the whole reason people like myself and blanch are so vehemently opposed to what you are saying.

    The fact you can't see that its the very reason it won't happen is startling. also the fact that you think that if you went ahead with this genius plan of subterfuge, it would somehow win hearts and minds in the afterglow. it would seed bitter resentment and deep divisions all over Irish society. do people think cause its 2021, that splits can't happen or something? we're seeing it all over the World. its no different to any time really.

    and yeah such poorly thought out ideas need to be treated with flippant replies at times. they are absurd.

    Just cause you can accept the change means nothing. look at text all over the internet from articles, editorials, politicans, commentators, reddit, boards, polls, tv etc etc its all there.

    anyway i give up. you guys seem to be accepting of the need for compromise so thats half the battle.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    You live in one of the most policed areas of the country🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    thats why i see the police regularly through my work on the ground through the inner city. oh no wait i don't. thats why it took 10 minutes for police to break up the trouble at weekend, 100 metres from a station.

    Tell that to the family of the six stabbing victims in the NIC over a 3 month period over the last year.

    policing in Ireland is at a low ebb. great for big busts and management of events and traffic. thats about it. community policing and boots on the ground is woeful. so woeful that when they do it they have to make a song and dance about it on social media. the disgrace over dropped calls.

    maybe that will be the good thing about a UI a total retrofit of an unfit, underfunded and unloved police force.

    I mean its the positive of some of this stuff. breaking away from close minded 20th century thinking.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Smallest district in the country, with the most members. Should there be more? Absolutely. You are still in one of the most policed areas of the whole country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    yeah fair enough. i mean the numbers are startling. Lowest funded police force per capita i think? and the issue of Donegal police using their own vehicles etc. but i think part of all that is the policing by consent. its why we don't have armed police. again armed police in NI is a thing. how do we square that? so many issues

    again to keep it on topic, it could be a big benefit of a UI. Maybe the EU would invest in some of the rebuilding.

    but yeah just thinking about it now. would the Ulster section of our reimagined police force have guns?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    At least you see the police, there are many areas of NI that never see a policeman/woman



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    What the devil are you on about?

    I put up a post expressing i am open minded to any future policing structure. I also relayed my opinion on how to win a UI referendum.

    That's not subterfuge.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    what am i on about? "Yes, exactly like they won the Brexit referendum next door." which was through lies and subterfuge..i.e deceit in order to achieve their goal of leaving Europe. so yeah thats what i'm on about. vote on a lofty UI...how does one achieve that. the devil is in the detail.

    terribly shortsighted. and doomed to failure. more so than if you had robust discussion and debate.

    FIne if its just the fantasy version you are dreaming up. if its an actual advocation of a policy, it should be treated with scorn. and would be by many many people.



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