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United Ireland Poll - please vote



  • You can't promise that nobody will lose out financially because of a united Ireland, because there is a huge hole to fix in the form of a UK subsidy, and unless you keep some people on lower public service wages and others on lower social welfare, there is a huge extra bill to be paid. Someone somewhere will either be paying a huge extra tax bill or someone else will be losing out.

    Just compare teacher salaries for example.

  • So you fool people into a united Ireland? Is that what you are saying?

    Don't tell them what it will look like because they might vote against?

  • I was giving examples of high level achievable points that could be put into a framework document .... I wasn't, you know, actually writing the list. Big picture.

  • No blanch that wouldn't be possible.

    A UI referendum that creates a time limited process of constitutional change as a new republic is defined.

    All options on the table.

  • Nobody is looking for detailed answers to every single situation, but when the proponents of a united Ireland don't have the first clue as to what will happen anywhere, why would anyone vote for that pig in a poke?

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  • Utter nonsense and never evidenced by you despite being asked.

    Any decision by anyone in government can be challenged by judicial review, because of what they court ruled in the McCord case it wouldn't have a chance though because the court implacably said that an SoS cannot be constrained.

    And even if it hadn't found that, you nonsense that calling for a poll is anti the GFA is just spectacular exclusionary rhetoric and waffle.

  • Nonsense. Nothing in the court judgement precludes a judicial review. I have been clear from the start on that.

    The court case was an attempt by the plaintiff to set constraints on the SoS in advance of any decision.

    I can tell you that Sinn Fein will be first in the door of the Court if an SoS refuses a border poll having been requested by a majority of the Assembly to hold one.

    A border poll hasn't a chance of passing in Northern Ireland. If anything, support for it is declining up there.

  • Normally replies follow on logically from the previous comment, but good for you for trying something different.

  • It's ok blanch, we know that you are against a UI. There is no magic formula of details in a UI framework that you would vote for. We get it.

    You can go now.

  • Wait a are agreeing that the court found that a SoS can decide whenever they want but that because there may or may not be a judicial review of a SoS decision that this is why anyone calling for a border poll is breaking the GFA?

    This is talking yourself into a cul de sac of epic proportions

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  • Nope, that isn't what I am saying, or have been saying since the day of the court outcome.

  • So an SoS can make a decision unconstrained, at any time.

    What could possibly be against the GFA by calling for a poll?

    Wall of cul de sac about to be hit.

  • So are you expecting people to vote for a UI without any idea of how much it will cost, how it will be governed, what the handover will look like, what are the UK on the hook for vs what Ireland/EU are on the hook for etc etc. Voting it through blindly and work the rest out later?

    I think it would be madness to go down that road - there would obviously be a time-limited transition period where the finer details are worked out, but any referendum would need some set of guiding principles at least.

    IMO - the "Yes" side (which would include all large parties in Ireland) would have to find some common ground and present a vision for what a UI would look like. If nobody can put down a vision for what a UI Ireland would look like in practice then what exactly are we voting on?

  • The government of the day will be making the case and framing the question that will be asked, mandated by the aspiration in our constitution. It is envisaged it will take the form of a white paper after consultations and discussions as to what a UI would look like.

    I would expect a Border Poll would take place in 2 years from the point the SoS calls for one, same as what happened in Scotland.

    In Scotland incidentally, the Yes vote only mustered 32% when a Ref was called and only surged after the White Paper was published.

    That is why polls here are not really indicative because there is no 'plan/White Paper' yet. I would think polling would change dramatically when a WP/Plan is arrived at.

    Maybe that explains the fear and attempts to exclude a Border Poll being called in the first place? Try kill the discussion getting started.

  • May I be the first to welcome Barbados to the family of Republics. May many more former colonies follow.

  • its called being realistic. and i qualified it by saying people who think its just around the corner are being naive. and also those who think a 50 plus 1 will be smooth sailing. it won't be as we have seen in Brexit. i'm not arguing that it won't happen as per GFA. but whatever, believe what you want to believe. i'd make a bet with you that we won't see a United Ireland within the next 15 years.

    and on one hand you recognise the need for olive branches, and in the next breath your thumping chests over Republics and colonies. the likely scenario is that any new Ireland might not use the word Republic in its official name. these are all the nuances that will have to be worked out.

    basically it boils down to ”You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view, until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.”

    – Atticus Finch in To Kill A Mockingbird. 

  • If it was 80+ there would be a small minority of belligerents and partitionists who would never be happy with it.

    Unless you can come up with a reason for denying the wishes of a majority that is better than 'it might be difficult' then that super majority argument is doomed.

    You cannot pretend to be a democratic while denying a majority their wish, ESPECIALLY after enshrining it in an internationally binding agreement and further, that minority respecting the 'wishes of a majority' for the last 25 years.

  • yeah really bitter ones id imagine. it could be ugly.

    i'm not denying anything. I'm saying the simplistic notions around a United Ireland (not by anyone here or SF) mean it is doomed unless there is robust debate and information. but yeah if the numbers allow it it will go ahead. but its not a sure thing at all. and no democracy often is flawed. the idea that it is flawless leads to the divisions we have today. i mean theres no better system, but it can go tits up as we are witnessing in the US and the UK.

    Again we need a few more years and the slow ebbing away of hardliners. its not that simple to get my point. i'm mainly saying patience is a virtue. whats another few years in a battle thats taken 500 odd years.

    you guys are in a mad dash to push it over the line. i don't get it.

    We need a few more years of better intergration, the walls gone, religion dead and the old hardliners in the ground and then yeah its all on the table. its clear to see middle class unionists would be wobbly on a UI. the lumpen proles will be a different story, but who knows. clearly SF on both governments would be another push as well. Their change up from fix housing to 100 per cent UI will be funny to watch tho.

    Im not saying i'd reject any 50 plus 1. i'm saying its naive to think its clear cut. and its dangerous not to lay all the cards on the table regarding it.

    Thats it. infer whatever. im slightly different to Blanch i think. maybe i'm not, i dunno.

    YOu can't change the terms of it i agree. if it was changed to some super majority there will be conflict. damned if you do, damned if you don't. but again its a hugely complex situation and when i really envision a UI, i see years of chaos and anger as men and women weep for Republics and Unions.

  • There will always be hardliners...Jamie Bryson is still in his 30's.

    There isn't an excuse to wait any longer. We constitutionally aspire to it and we should be planning for it.

  • The official name of Ireland right now is just that Ireland at least in English Eire obviously in Irish. We already do not use the word Republic in our official name.

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  • That isn't what I said, that isn't what the court said. You know that.

  • This is what I have been saying for months, and it is falling on deaf ears.

  • Blanch you plainly said that in calling for a Border poll, SF are in breach of the conditions regarding such.

    These are your words: "You and SF are calling for a border poll now in breach of those conditions - FACT"

    But the fact is, the only "condition" about a border poll is that the British SoS decides if one should be held. There is absolutely nothing wrong nor any breach of anything, for SF or anybody else calling for a border poll.

  • Let's be clear, the GFA says that the SoS should call a poll when he believes that a majority would vote for it.

    Now, unless he is completely brainless and confused, there is no way on earth that he can reach that conclusion. In calling for a border poll now, Sinn Fein are not only going against the GFA, but they are unnecessarily stirring up tension in the North. If it was a discussion board, they'd be banned for trolling.

  • The SoS could think like me...that a border poll will be won when an Irish GOvernment presents a WHite Paper on how it would work.

    The FACT here blanch is you have once again been caught out, putting a personal opinion about your boggeymen and women across as some kind of fact.

    There is NOTHING resembling a breach of the GFA in calling for a border poll. It just scares the bejayus out of insecure partitionists and belligerent Unionists.

  • If there's nothing in it for them they'll usually skedaddle. I would like to see how many British people know the status of NI. I can't see most brits caring about a part of Ireland that confuses most of them as to why they are connected at all.

    If the tories don't see an advantage from unionist votes, they'll lose interest sharp. All we need is the unionist vote to flounder and that's looking good.

  • Thanks for broadening your meaning of 'exclusionary nationalism'.

    What is your 'nationalism but...' idea?

    80% +1?

    Nothing exclusionary about wanting the majority to have their democratic voices heard.

    We were not asked when it was created. We had no say when the electoral boundaries were changed to fix elections. I think seeking 50+1 is mighty swell of us.

  • A United Ireland is a necessity for this island.

    Peace is not just the absence of war but is also establishing conditions which will ensure a lasting peace. This means eradicating the root cause of the conflict by gaining national self-determination, which in turn lays the foundation for justice, democracy and equality - the safeguards of lasting peace.

    Britain claims that the main reason for staying in Ireland is not to maintain its own interests but primarily to safeguard democracy; however, to protect its own interests in Ireland, Britain has given power of veto over national independence to a pro-British unionist minority which is in direct contravention of the principle of national self-determination and is therefore a denial of democracy itself.

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  • Now that is funny, reading that poster across various threads, I got the impression they were trolling. Kinda confirms it.