The creeping prominence of the Irish language

I'm not going to say it's not flawed, all self reported data is, but it's all we have to go on as far as I can tell.

The thing is that IMO progress is being made, but unfortunately the Gaeltacht is still weakening. A lot more kids come out of school speaking Irish as a second language, and most of these (will) send their kids to a Gaelscoil. Because they speak Irish themselves, they will be well-placed to help their kids with their schoolwork, and part of the communication involved in that is (will be) done through Irish. Hearing Irish from a parent (even in such a part-time manner) makes Irish more real, more alive to the next generation. But numbers are still relatively small, and the effect is not generally visible to the general public.

Will we ever reach a stage where a substantial proportion of people raise their families through Irish? I have no idea. I'm not going to hold my breath, but when a substantial number have a specific ability or interest, a change can sweep through society in a short period of time. Imagine if it became fashionable for whatever reason among university students to speak Irish, or even a mixed patois. Then we'd have a whole new ball game.

I think I'll bookmark this post for future reference.

Big "if".

you also need the people who can speak Irish to actively do so - question then is: why aren't they? It's not the infrastructure that's stoppign them.

Nearly everone alreadt spends a lot of time learning it as kids - why not capitaliise on that? Whay wait until they're adults?

If you're happy with the status quo, then fair enough - I am surprised - but again, you haven't really set a very high bar.

I'm not sure if you debunking your strongest piece of "data" to score points is the win you think it is.

Went does sometime have to be fluent on order to make it worthwhile?

Why be satisfied with just having the facilities (debateable) and not get people actually wanting to use them?

Grand but what happens when they leave the manufactured environment of the Gaelscoil - either out with their peers & neighbours, wider family and later on in life when leave said Gaelscoil. Doubtless they'll keep some sort of interest but it real life it'll be a hobby kind of thing. They'll need to seek out other speakers in groups and societies and so on. Anyone who promotes & campaigns for the idea that Ireland will go back to a place where Irish is spoken widely and commonly in the community is delusional. And probably more interested in the supports and income stream from the state that prop up their livelihoods.

Yep, if Polish people want to chat in Polish, they have to actively seek out others who speak Polish.... likewise if you want to converse as Gaeilge outside special environments like Gaelscoil or Gaeltacht summer camps. Of course you can watch TG4 and listen to RnaG but most kids regard those as for old fuddy duddies now. Nothing wrong at all with a hobby interest in a language, good for the brain.

1.8 million people can speak a few sentences of irish, an will cead agam ,conas ata tu, etc 2million irish people are catholics, yeah they go to church to go to a wedding , funeral, maybe once a month, the last time i heard someone speak irish is about 30 years ago when i went to school.

Well here he is attacking Irish, and brings in catholicism - he sure as hell isn't praising the religion. Either he's equating it to Irish - which he is attacking in this post - or he's got some weird issues.

On top of that if official figures are to be believed, there's around 4.5 million catholics in Ireland. Given that his estimate of the number of catholics in the country is so far out of line with reality, he's not someone I'd take seriously.

You're right, I'll change my position to ~90%* of the country but then you don't get to throw the 1.7 million cupla focail crowd and whatever the daily speaker figure is around either as you know the census data regarding Irish is inflated.

But as I stated already this hurts your case a lot more than mine

*arrived at by subtracting everyone who speaks a language other than English or Irish at home except those in primary or secondary school from the population.

I'm not arguing that point, I don't think it's as simple as fluency = worthwhile.

However, I'm fairly sure most language learners don't aspire to be A2 speakers of their second/third language forever.

Regarding to task to "get people actually wanting to use" facilities, sure, that's what the visual presence of Irish is all about isn't it? Irish signs, Irish media, Irish social media, sport on Tg4 etc... are all part of that visiblity and connection. Then the fact that there are real employment opportunities out there now, outside of education, for those with Irish is a good thing too.

But none of that will compensate for the hard work that goes into learning (any) language if someone isn't already positively disposed.

Not only do you need people to be passionate about the Irish language as adults, you also need to encourage them to become language learners.

Not everyone has the time or headspace to do that, and I totally respect that.

That's fine, because I don't feel that it hurts my position at all, as I am happy to deal with realities.

The reason for this is that if we pretend a situation is different to what it is, then we are unlikely to propose a suitabe solution.

I'm happy to accept that many, most even, of the 1.8 million who tick a box in the census are not fluent in Irish, much as I would like the situation to be otherwise.

Equally, I'm happy to accept that 64% of people who voted in the general election last year claimed to speak Irish. But I wouldn't believe that they are all fluent either - but I think that we could probably both agree that most of them, maybe 90%, are supportive of Irish. They are not all active speakers it of course - but probably the 36% who claim to speak Irish - i.e. actively use the language even if only from time to time - are in fact true speakers (if intermittent in most cases) of the language. And it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that maybe half again of those have a fair degree of fluency. Not completely at ease in all situations, but able to hold their own in a conversation.

My guess, on the basis of the figures and my own experience is that between a quarter and half a million people are active speakers of Irish. Note that I am not saying they are frequent speakers or that they are first-language speakers; the majority would be second-language speakers, but do so relatively comfortably when presented with the opportunity or need, in a conversational situation. Neither do I mean they can deal with Irish in a technical situation - for that they would need training in the particular field to learn the vocabulary and become comfortable dealing with it.

I feel there is a fashion at present for people to act like they are interested in promoting the language. Bit it isnt difficult to copy a paragraph of English into google translate to get the desired effect, so much of that kind of stuff holds little water.

Gaelscoils have had increased support of late, but I know many parents who believe strongly that much of this is driven more by elitism and the belief that this will allow them to avoid certain groups and families than any interest in the language itself.

The reality is you can only really judge its genuine popularity on the level it is spoken at, and that is miniscule. The majority of people are simply not interested in promoting it and their actions spell this out.

I think a grown up conversation is needed around the language being taught in the manner it is. Generally speaking, the only jobs that people will get out of irish is teaching other people irish. That is, taxpayers from this country paying someone to teach others. How many full time jobs is that bringing to an area? 5 or 6? 9 or 10 in a more built up area? It is a poor return for the level of input. It will never bring money or investment into the country. There will never be jobs from overseas that can potentially build up employment in a rural town etc. It does little to help the local economy.

Im not down on it, but I feel people need to be more objective about the state of play regarding the language.

You're still basing your estimate on a self reported figure and then assuming out of nowhere that half that figure are fluent.

Some actual research needs to be done on this but most Irish language supporters seem, to me at least, to be afraid of it because the result might be far from what they expected.