The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230657#Comment_118230657

I agree objectivity is important in this debate.

So for starters let's stop reposting speculation about "elitist" gaelscoileanna which has been debunked at least 5 times in this thread alone. Don't let your handful of elitist parent "acquaintances" (I hope you don't count them as friends) cast aspersions on a full movement in place since the 1980s. Using diversity to attack diversity, nice one.

Second, your employment analysis matches 1970 quite nicely. Have you done *any* research on the topic, at all? What about the media, marketing, production, translation, professional services roles? What about the entrepreneurs using Irish as part or all of their craft, artistic, food, social media & publishing output? What about the professionalisation of language with educational technology, university research and developing state service provision through Irish? I'm leaving aside the Udaras na Gaeltachta companies.

This is my first "angry" response in a thread of over 40 pages because of its lazy premises in the name of objectivity.

I said to PBH that I was relatively happy but I'm changing my mind now. There is a need for a clear communication campaign to tackle lazy stereotypes. Irish, "an impractical, elitist language, its only emperical use is to exclude others", it couldn't be further from the truth.

/Rant over

Upforthematch

Let's tackle stereotypes about Gaeilge, one YouTube video at a time.

https://youtu.be/Mp8MvBgb10k

https://youtu.be/Mp8MvBgb10k

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227451#Comment_118227451

No attacks there, just some realism which you find uncomfortable.

In the case of both Irish and religion people are ticking boxes on the census out of habit, tradition - or perhaps shame - but the boxes they are ticking do not, in very many cases, reflect the reality of their daily lives. That is the point being made and you are hyping that up into some sort of 'attack' which is ridiculous.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230593#Comment_118230593

You're saying the same thing again: I asked you why you said it was about fluency three or four posts ago and then said it wasn't about flency and now you've said - again - that it's not all about flency. That was MY point - people don't have to be fluent to enjoy or converse in a langauge!

ALso, it's a bit stupid to have every child in the country spend 14 years learning the langauge and then say "it is going to invovle adults... voluntarily... becoming learners" - they were already learners, why earmark a system that makes them stop as "progress"?

You are defending something purely for the sake of defending it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228648#Comment_118228648

Israel?? Jaysus, one of the most objectionably militaristic smaller states on the planet. So full of 'national self confidence' they are like a rottweiler straining at the leash. If that's the vision, forget it!

Furze99

For the record, I'm like most Irish people. I like the cupla focal and would listen/ watch to a certain amount of Irish content in the media. Can manage a very basic conversation as a result of 14 years of state schooling. Also like a bit of trad and songs in Irish etc.

But when I fill in the census, I do not pretend to have any competence in Irish, because I don't beyond the very basics. I'm not fooling myself and the state/ lobbyists shouldn't either.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118232257#Comment_118232257

Rottweiler?? Jaysus, if you're just going to pick one word out of my sentence and run with it, forget it!

For the record, I was pointing at Israel's success with rehabilitating Hebrew, and no I don't think we need to replicate the way Israel works here.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118232274#Comment_118232274

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231823#Comment_118231823

It's MY point as well! Just look at @Furze99 's post above. S/he's not fluent, and s/he's rocking the words s/he has. Furze99 has it spot on, that is most people and I'm fine with that. 14 years in school will deliver this and most people are very happy with that level of Irish. Bully for them - people have the building blocks of Irish for life thanks to the school system.

But your question was about progress, which you haven't defined. I'm guessing you're referring to additional numbers of fluent speakers, maybe you're not. If you clarified this it might help the discussion.

Would the regular guy have the basic vocab s/he has without learning it in school? Possibly not.

Would s/he need to continue learning as an adult to maintain their level leaving school and grow in ability? Absolutely!

@Furze99 likes the cupla focal, but only @Furze99 can answer what would turn those cupla focal into cupla abairt, it's a personal choice.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118232876#Comment_118232876

I've said more than once rhat progress is getting more and more people speaking Irish. Not just being able to speak it, actually speaking it. Not just a couple focal, actual conversations.

And more people leaving school with both the ability AND the desire.

You avoid the questions I ask again: 1 - why wait until their adults?; and 2 - why force kids to learn it if you don't put any effort into getting them to enjoy it?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233230#Comment_118233230

Thanks for that, I wasn't clear what you were asking, I've already answered these points.

1. I don't believe it's possible for children in English speaking homes to go from zero to B2 in Irish (or any other language for that matter). They can go from zero to A2 or B1 if people choose to attend a Gaelscoil. They need to build on that A1/A2 level as adults, as I have said. Kids have other subjects to learn at school too!
2. Re. Mandatory Irish at school. I have answered that several times over in this thread and the last thread on this issue. But what makes you think no effort is put into inviting kids to enjoy learning Irish? Most teachers try I'm sure but like any school subject if you don't like it there isn't much that can be done is there? No one would have convinced me at 14 to love Shakespeare yet I was "forced" to learn it. How would you have have "got" me to enjoy that?

If your underlying question is, why am I not more radical, it's because I don't think it is pragmatic. You won't find me suggesting that Irish should make up 50% of school time so that all kids can become B2 level speakers and lovers of the language.

What does help are the summer gaeltachts that teenagers attend; there are programmes designed that actually give teens a chance to have fun with Irish, the crowd in Galway Colaiste Lurgan that are well known for their Irish Language knock-offs of current chart singles comes to mind.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230657#Comment_118230657

I know many parents who believe strongly that much of this is driven more by elitism and the belief that this will allow them to avoid certain groups and families than any interest in the language itself.

many, much, more, believe strongly, certain groups ...

... if you could put that in everyday English, or even everyday Irish, it might have some actual meaning. But as it stands it is pure gibberish, complete nonsense.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231823#Comment_118231823

... it's a bit stupid to have every child in the country spend 14 years learning the langauge...

To my mind, it's a bit stupid to spend so much school time to so little effect.

But then the people who devise the Irish curriculum also have a poet on the (English) syllabus who topped herself - or at least did so just a few years ago. Some people might see this as inappropriate in the light of the pressures secondary school students come under. I see her as a particularly poor choice of role model.

What I'm saying here is that those who decide how and what to teach in Irish schools are severely lacking in joined up thinking. The Irish language curriculum is seriously unfit for purpose, and has been for decades. But it feels to me that there might be a general malaise running through the Dept of Education, so much so that it would be no harm if it were abolished and something else with different personnel was put in its place.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233991#Comment_118233991

Jaysus, that escalated quickly.

If you don't already know (and I'd be surprised if you don't), it is the NCCA rather than the Department of Education that designs and/or reviews post-primary curriculum content. Under the 1998 Education Act, the Minister for Education prescribes the curriculum, but has delegated responsibility for curriculum design and review to the NCCA. You may also be aware that current proposals by the NCCA to change the Irish curriculum at senior cycle and introduce a differentiated curriculum has been the cause of some opposition, not least from Gaelscoileanna and Gaeltacht schools.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/oireachtas-hears-criticisms-of-proposals-for-leaving-cert-irish-1.4736788

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233991#Comment_118233991

Completely agree with the first line. Can't believe anyone is happy with that.

Agree with you on the English bit, too - but "well, they have useless stuff on the English syllabus too" isn't really an argument for syllabus content. Having done Wutehring **** Heights, I can empthaise.

Those who decide what is on sais syallabus' clearly have no connection with youth. I'm amazed they are actually in the positions they are in, and that goes for the general education system.

I haven't read this thread, or the OP, and not an Irish speaker, but the thread title always gives me a chuckle when I see it on the front page...

--Creeping prominence, you say?

Yes. I am receiving an increasing number of reports of its incidence.

--And this is happening, today, in Ireland?

All over Ireland. And increasingly so. Yes.

--Ireland is the last place you'd expect this to happen. It's just not right! In the name of all that is holy and in line with nature what can we do about this transgression?

Hold the line, old bean. There are snakes in the grass and they're hiding in plain sight. Stand firm. Might start a thread on boards about it...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233861#Comment_118233861

I'd argue that the whole idea of using CEFR grades is stupid - you can learn a langauge and enjoy it and become reasonably efficient at it without needing to be subjected to grades. Adults don't sit around thinking that they can't go from zero to B2 without Gaelscoils - they just go and learn it.

What makes me thnk noone is putting effrot into making kids enjoy it? Well, the fact that most of them don't like it or don't persue it after the leave school, obviously. I'm speaking here more about the effort put into the syllabus and resources, rather than by individual teachers in classrooms.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234480#Comment_118234480

Let's leave gaelscoileanna to one side because most people are in agreement that this model broadly works (note how it covers the same syllabus).

When you ask people what's wrong with Irish in schools, people universally say "I studied Irish for X years and I can't speak a word of it".

Speaking Irish was always at the bottom of the priority list when I was in school anyway. And that surely has changed now that the oral exam is 40% of the leaving cert exam. That's a positive change. But as anyone who has learned a second language will attest to, conversation is the *hardest* language skill to learn. Much easier to read.

Few are suggesting that more time needs to be spent on Irish so the issue is efficiency.

The key problem as I see it, is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent approach to vocabulary acquisition from year 1 to year 13.

It would be interesting to hear a 1st year Irish teacher's perspective. @Boards.ie: Niamh might be one for AskMeAnything!

It must be some patchwork quilt when it comes to foundations.

And then the teacher needs to teach specialist vocab on analysing a poem when 50% of the kids possibly don't know the months of the year.

What would be revolutionary would be to have an oral exam at junior cert, but I can't say I'm surprised that there's no demand for that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234696#Comment_118234696

None of this really addresses my points, but I'd agree with you about the AskMeAnything with an Irish teacher, definitely.

I'm pretty sure I did an oral exam at Junior level...? Might be wrong - might have been the Leaving, was a long time ago - but I'd agree. I'd also say that more emphais should be put on oral exams - it is a language and something you're supposed to speak, after all.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220035#Comment_118220035

Nothing ever to be lost by playing the victim card Eh ? LOL.

In one breath the Gaelic lobby claims that the language is about to sweep the country with hordes of pupils eagerly crowding into Gaelscoileanna to learn the etymologies of placenames and magically get in touch with the 'soul' of the country. ***

In the next breath the language is on its last legs and will become ( even more) defunct unless truckloads of dosh are urgently dispatched towards the gallant linguistic warriors labouring in the revival trenches. That this will also have the effect of copperfastening pointless jobs for the footsoldiers and their offspring in areas like bureaucratic maneouvring,issuing reports , drawing up 10 year plans not to mention the good ol' meeja is something the language evangelists can manage to live with - because they're noble souls ( OMG there's that word again).

*** I really hope someone can specify the nature of the country's 'soul' and how it can be experienced. Does one have to go into a trance ? Spend a night on the Hill of Tara ? Make a pilgrimage to a western island ? Make a novena to St. Patrick ? Learn the poetry of Dáibhí O Bruadair ? Master the Tuiseal Ginideach and the Modh Fo-shuiteach caite ? Or maybe the 'soul' is reachable in a chipper in Mulhuddart or a Tesco checkout in Tullamore ? Or maybe only in a figment of someone's fevered imagination ?

Come on you soul-seekers -let us know how it will be done. Or , better still -have you done it already? Rush us the gory transcendental details if so,

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234289#Comment_118234289

To be honest, I haven't been keeping up with who designs the post-primary curriculum. But yes, I have heard of the NCCA.

The fact is as far as I can see, the curriculum at both primary and secondary levels is not fit for purpose as regards Irish. There are European countries where most kids come out speaking English successfully; and I remember some years ago being at a loss on a tram in Antwerp as I didn't know how to ask for a ticket in Dutch - and the tram driver seeing my predicament offered me a choice of Flemish, French, German and English.

In other words, the Irish educational system is failing badly in one of its core functions: teaching Irish to our children.

I brought in Sylvia Plath as an example of a poor role model for teenagers (as opposed to a poor poet) because I feel that having her on the syllabus at a period of great stress in young people's lives demonstrates a lack of awareness of some sort on the part of those putting her on the syllabus; and in this regard it matters little IMO whether it is the Dept of Education or some quango under the auspices of the Minister of Education. I'm pretty sure the NCCA is staffed by civil servants, many of whom probably come from the Dept of Ed in any case.

I am also aware of the attempt at introducing a separate curriculum for Irish in Irish-language schools. In fact I am in favour of it - always provided that this does not bring about a downgrading of the language in the English-language system (and it is pretty much a given that this would happen).

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236714#Comment_118236714

Surely you see the irony of your example in that Dutch, Flemish, French, German and English are all useful languages spoken daily by many people. It is/was useful for your tram driver to be able to converse in them.

Whereas regardless of the aspirations of our constitution and Official Languages Act, Irish as a daily lived in language is spoken by a relatively tiny number of Irish language revivalists and enthusiasts. It's simply not a language required for daily life in Ireland. Grand to know and have an interest in, but not required by any means at all.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233934#Comment_118233934

Your assertions are vapid and wrong-headed like most of the disingenuous drivel you dish up. The sentence you misdescribe as 'nonsense' is perfectly syntactically formed and makes crystal clear sense.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236701#Comment_118236701

What a diatribe!

If you're genuinely interested in 'soul' searching, have a look at Roxanna's Youtube video I posted 10 posts ago.

You're suggesting that there is waste of public money and pointless state funded jobs going on regarding Irish. Care to elaborate with anything specific other than "all of it"?

You've descried the Irish paradox well. Lots of people interested in speaking Irish, not a lot of people actually speaking it. Gaelscoileanna have been the best way I have seen to overcome this in the last 30 years. That is all going to contribute to the life-support strategy for Irish. Very few people are thinking beyond that; all this attention is on giving minority langauges the support they need to survive.

Sounds like you just want to pull the plug and turn off the machine.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236701#Comment_118236701

Shroedinger's language - both thriving and in decline at the same time. Just don't open the box...

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234642#Comment_118234642

How can you say that using CEFR grades is stupid when it's acknowledged as the main way of assessing T2 language skills in Europe?

I'm using it to refer to the broad levels that people reach. Every speaker is somewhere on the scale, whether they are conscious of it or not. It doesn't have to be part of the classroom of course.

I don't think your argument about not pursuing the subject after they leave school stacks up either. There were several subjects in school I liked that I haven't pursued since. I might pursue them in the future, but it hasn't suited me to do so. Irish was one that did suit me to pursue but I had left school many years before I returned to it.

I don't understand how can you leave "individual teachers" off the hook regarding your comment about a lack of effort to make kids enjoy the language? I mean who else is involved here if it isn't the teacher? And don't forget the teacher has the discretion to pick which stories etc... are studied and there is a wide range of material there to choose from.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236714#Comment_118236714

AFAIK, the NCCA is staffed by a combination of administrators, teachers and academics. They also consult regularly with the public, parents and teachers about curriculum changes. There's actually a public consultation about the Irish curriculum on their website at the moment (but it ends soon).

The system could do a better job of teaching kids Irish (mind you, it could also do a better job of teaching some kids English, but sin scéal eile). While the system has a lot to learn, it doesn't have a lot to learn from the kind of bigoted "thinkers" who comment on the subject on social media (or message boards).

A key weakness of the NCCA proposals as they are currently framed is that they put a bigger burden on Irish-medium schools without any concomitant reward; they also don't guarantee a weakening of standards in English-medium schools, while at the same time guaranteeing that the oral component of the assessment will be downgraded in importance.

Having been out of touch with the Senior Cycle curriculum for years, I was astounded that Sylvia Plath was on the English programme. I was also delighted to see that she was (and she was a key factor in inspiring my son in his English studies). We all see these things differently.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236971#Comment_118236971

OK -you ask for a specific example so I'll provide one. Over the years , like all householders, I 've received communications in the form of fliers , booklets etc, from agencies like Gov depts. Referendum Commissions , ESB etc. I haven't made a complete collection but I have a number to hand. They come in the form of A5 sized sheets , usually in glossy paper and with the message written in English and Gaelic.

Some of the bulkier examples would be ' Preparing for Major Emergencies' ( 40pp) Keeping Well This Winter ( 20pp), others run to 10, 12 , 14pp etc. and deal with stuff like Lisbon Treaty , Covid, Facts About Carbon Monoxide, ESB Metering and Pricing and so forth.

The total number of pages in what I have before me runs to approx. 170. There are about 2,000,000 households in the country. That means that 340,000,000 million sheets of A5 paper had to be used to print a Gaelic version on. That's not counting costs like paying hapless translators, the extra delivery costs due to extra weight and sundry spin-off expenses. This is just a subset of what has been distributed. Then there's the innumerable forms which are duplicated around all the depts. and agencies -Revenue etc. all revised and updated year after year. [One can also consider the signage issue which leads to use of extra material -paper, wood, plastic,steel and so on together with the collateral expenses of translation , transport and maintenance ]

The cost of this pointless exercise must be humungous and all for what ? For producing texts that add nothing to the citizens' comprehension of any issue - texts tha contain painfully constructed forms of Gaelic that feature incomprehensible neologisms that never existed before and will never exist on anyone's lips. Even self-identified fluent speakers would struggle with many passages in these documents.

Here are some terms from these publications which few Gaeilgeoirí would understand in either written or spoken form :- ionfhabhtuithe, gróigeadh, coire , ceirisín, beag-astú , amhchamras , bonneagar , cothaithigh.

Where terms are not utterly opaque -they are frequently the total opposite - just modified forms of the English words e.g. víreas( virus) , paindéim ( pandemic) fliú (flu) carbón ( carbon) etc. etc. Any reasonable person can surely appreciate the pointlessness and wastefulness of this policy which most would agree does nothing to increase use of Gaelic among any group or cohort.

The only beneficiaries of this idiocy are those who are employed to trawl through dictionaries to concoct terminology and syntactically ape the English version. It might be almost funny if it weren't costly and futile. We hear constantly about long delays in depts. dealing in matters relating to driving tests , passports and other services . How much more usefully these translators could be redeployed to actually give citizens the services and facilities they urgentlyrequire.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237215#Comment_118237215

You're very touchy there, I'm not sure why.

The Irish-language curriculum at all levels has been a disgrace for decades. It is clerly not producing the desired results - unless the desired result is to waste pupils' time and ensure that they don't learn much Irish at school. Whether this is the fault of our politicians, our civil servants, our teachers and academics; or whether each group has a specific part to play in the pantomime; can at times be hard to say.

By way of illustration, I remember a few years ago Ruari Quinn stated his belief that everyone coming out of our primary teachers' colleges had a high enough level of Irish to teach in a Gaelscoil (or nonsense to that effect). Around the same time, I spoke to a friend with a son who couldn't find work as a primary teacher. When I told my friend that there were plenty of opportunities in gaelscoileanna, the response was "His Irish wouldn't be good enough".

In other words, having gone right through the system - primary, secondary and teacher-training, the young fella still couldn't speak Irish. And there are a great many like him coming out of our teacher-training colleges. We all know this, but still many pretend that the system is working when that is patently not so.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237159#Comment_118237159

Why do you think it's so important to subject kids to grades but not adults?

And stop comparing Irish to other subjects! Firstly, because the other subjects being just as bad doesn't put Irish in a better light and secondly because seeing Irish as a school subject for kids and a language for adults creates the biggest barrier to progress for the language.

Do you accept that kids might enjoy something of you stopped grading them? Or that you don't need to be A2 or B1 to have a conversation? Simple yes or no answer please.

And for the love of God go back and read the bit about Irish teachers again. I'm not replying to that until you actually comprehend the point I make, which you didn't here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock