The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236836#Comment_118236836

What I see there is an education system that imparts not just one extra language to pupils but three extra languages. And I think we can be sure that the average tram driver in Antwerp isn't an academic wonder. Or mybe I met the only one ... only I could tell a similar story about several working-class Dutch people that I have known.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236867#Comment_118236867

I know many parents who believe strongly that much of this is driven more by

elitism and the belief that this will allow them to avoid certain groups

and families than any interest in the language itself.

'many parents' - care to put a number on it?

'elitism' - what a wonderful catch-all complaint. Mind you, how it is that people in Ballymun, Clondalkin, Tallaght and Ballyfermot (to name but a few) are elitist sort of escapes me. Blackrock College and Castleknock College are Elitest, but they don't teach through Irish, and they have very high fees to weed out people they don't approve of. Now there's a definition of elitism.

'certain groups and families' - who are you taking about here? why don't you tell us out straight; because I have never heard of children being refused a place in a Gaelscoil for belonging to a particular social or ethnic group or family.

It's true that many are turned away from Gaelscoileanna - though this in my experience is always due to lack of space.

I suspect the 'many parents' that you know don't have much evidence to back up their 'belief', but if they do, I'd be really interested to read it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237529#Comment_118237529

With respect this thread is becoming a bit of a farce - surely we don't think that education systems are the means of young people learning several languages. They may get the rudiments in primary and secondary school but they can only learn to speak in the vernacular through daily life. It's useful for citizens of the Netherlands to have a good grasp of French, German, English etc and therefore they acquire them.

Which brings us back again to the true nature of our Irish language. It's a cultural hobby, not a necessity for daily life. No matter what people might wish for. And that's not going to change short of some form of ultra extreme nationalist government that seeks to impose Irish on the population.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233957#Comment_118233957

It simply tells me more about you; although I think I already know more than I want to about you.

Ah, here we go again. How to win friends and influence people, Irish language lobby style. 🙄

Graces7

Surely the real validity of a language is its use in the daily life where is is spoken? Not in it as a subject on a school curriculum?

This has been my experience a few times in my two decades in rural Ireland.

In Ballydavid, Dingle, I was at Mass once which was all in Irish and with a large congregation.

Afterwards I was chatting with some of the families with small children and when they spoke to the little ones they repeated all they said in both Irish and English as a natural way.

Out here on a West Mayo island. I was on the ferry once when a lady from the Gaeltacht was talking to the ferryman , both in fluent Irish. The ferryman left school at 14 and I am thinking Irish was and probably is still spoken at home.

Bi-lingual . changing from one language to the other with total ease. As language should be.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118239407#Comment_118239407

Begging to differ. Your first para. I speak fluent French, learned at secondary school and not in daily life. When I was trading at street markets and French folk were around they thought I was French. I have never lived in France. Just school.

And see my previous post?

There are still rural areas where English comes out for foreigners and the home language is Irish. "Necessity" is a harsh and blind word where communication is concerned. Folk are more at ease speaking Irish. That kind of communication is what life is about.

Of course courtesy is so deep that unless you are in situations such as I was privileged to be in? I had no idea folk here were bi-lingual. Language is learned as those little ones in the Dingle Church were learning it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118239644#Comment_118239644

Well Graces7, if you learnt fluent French solely in secondary school you'd be in a small percentile of learners - you must have a great aptitude for language acquisition :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237511#Comment_118237511

You're very touchy there, I'm not sure why.

If I am, it's not with yourself, more some of the bigoted views I'm reading. Except maybe for what you said about Sylvia Plath - tsk tsk.

I've met Ruairi a few times, and I genuinely like the fella, but heaven help us I don't think he'd recognise good or bad Irish if it walked up to him and glued a séimhiú to his forehead.

From my limited observations (well, somewhat limited), I'd guess that the system is making it too easy for primary education students (or at least a percentage of them) to bluff their way through Gaeilge in college. I wonder if you might be on to something when you talk about each group having a specific part in the pantomime? What is it they say about a camel being a horse designed by a committee?

I said earlier on in the thread that the one thing that most of us could agree on is that the State's existing approach to fostering Irish hasn't worked, and that includes the Gaeilge curriculum. In that context, the NCCA has proposed a new approach. While their experts say it is a better approach, a lot of teacher and parent representatives don't seem to agree, and so the system goes around the mulberry bush again. I don't know enough about pedagogy to critique the NCCA's work, but the creation of a two-tier system concerns me. If a two-tier system had existed many years ago when I was studying, there's a possibility I'd have come out of school with less Irish than I did, and that notion bothers me. But also, if the new approach is going to reduce the value of the oral test and hike up the written and "notes-based" stuff, is that going to promote rote learning at the expense of conversational skills?

I can't quite describe the problem, but what I'm seeing from a lay person's point of view is a review of the Irish curriculum that may well produce another fudge, or another badly-designed horse. I saw a great quote (from whom I unfortunately couldn't say) that "curriculum is the set of stories one generation chooses to tell to the next". For over 150 years, each generation has chosen to tell a story of internalised oppression to the next about the Irish language. If we continue to do that then curriculum review and redesign is, for want of a better expression, obair in aisce (an expression whose meaning Google Translate misses by a country mile). The monoculturalists would say "stop bothering and just speak English". I'm still hoping Ireland Inc can figure out how to do it well.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243063#Comment_118243063

I read the article you posted and it appeared that most of the changes were mostly in relation to exams rather than course syllabus, and you already know how I feel abotu exams: you want a large group of young people to hate something? Tell them you're going to make them take exams on it and place your concept of their value (and part of that of their future) on the results.

What I find interesting here, though, is that they appear to be in disagreement with parents and teachers, which would hint that they might be out of touch a bit with the people whom this is going to impact most.

But it all depends on one question: what exactly do people want educational Irish to achieve?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237529#Comment_118237529

Practically plays important role too. Kids have a reason to learn English - not just because of their future, but also most of their favourite media is in English. Movies, music and so on - the mroe they know, they more then can enjoy them.

The other reason is that they teach these AS extra langauges, whereas we teach Irish as a cultural feature.

It comes down again to the question I asked above: what, ultimately, do peopel feel is/should be the goal of educational Irish?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243063#Comment_118243063

I don't know enough about pedagogy to critique the NCCA's work, but the creation of a two-tier system concerns me. If a two-tier system had existed many years ago when I was studying, there's a possibility I'd have come out of school with less Irish than I did, and that notion bothers me. But also, if the new approach is going to reduce the value of the oral test and hike up the written and "notes-based" stuff, is that going to promote rote learning at the expense of conversational skills?

I heard a discussion on the radio recently about the suggested new course, and one speaker mentioned that one major problem with the current oral is that kids effectively spend two years rote-learning answers to the pictures used in the oral exam.

It struck me on hearing that if - instead of this oral exam being done at the Leaving level - it was done at Junior Cert level then it could be a basis for kids being able to do a genuine oral - with maybe unseen pictures - for the Leaving.

And on the other hand, yes, I agree with you when you say that a two-tier approach could result in even lower standards in a hypothetical course for the English-language schools. In fact I would almost expect that to happen - despite the fact that most kids from Gaelscoileanna go on to an English-language secondary.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246244#Comment_118246244

Yes, the English-language system treats Irish more as a cultural feature than as a living language. I'd like to see it taught as a real, living language.

But this starts very early on - a nephew of mine is in 1st class and the books he comes home with in Irish and English are of a different quality. Despite him attending a Gaelscoil, the English language books are more attractive and imaginative. Also much more up-to-date.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248138#Comment_118248138

See, that's where it helps to actually know stuff. I wasn't aware that there were pics. I did my béaltriall a long time ago - and there were no pictures and therefore no rote answers. We did learn off a couple of clichés, but that was mostly to help the weaker kids get into the swing of the conversation. I remember talking with my examiner about the backwards state of the roads, despite which how much I wanted to be in a position to drive, the upcoming elections to the European Parliament, and how few women there were in politics.

Jaysus, I sound like an oul' git.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237504#Comment_118237504

 Even self-identified fluent speakers would struggle with many passages in these documents.

Here are some terms from these publications which few Gaeilgeoirí would understand in either written or spoken form :- ionfhabhtuithe, gróigeadh, coire , ceirisín, beag-astú , amhchamras , bonneagar , cothaithigh.

@boardise - I don't agree with you on much but I agree with you on this. I can hand on heart say I don't know what any of these words mean. You obviously know Irish to be able to pick these out and make that comment. Technical translations are almost as bad as computer generated translations. What is positive however, is that there are a lot of resources and courses for professional translators now though that weren't there 10 years ago. One book I have read makes the exact same criticisms as you do. Success in the art of translation is to make complicated topics understandable.

Regarding your boarder point about the numbers of pages 340 million, costs, translators etc... this point is overegged and the fundamental point applies to English as well. No wonder these pamphlet drops doesn't happen as often anymore, arguably it is all waste and key documents should just shared online through gov.ie, (in both languages of course).

@boardise - I assume you hold a consistent position on minority languages, Welsh, Gaelic etc... all for the chop?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237527#Comment_118237527

Are we on different wavelengths altogether?!.

Anyway, summary yes/no round as requested

1. Why do you think it's so important to subject kids to grades but not adults? - I never said this?
2. Do you accept that you don't need to be A2 or B1 to have a conversation? No. A learner at A1 isn't able to have a conversation, that's why they are at A1. You can go up the CEFR scale to A2 or B1 without doing exams by the way.
3. Do you accept that kids might enjoy something if you stopped grading them? No. At second level, no exam = no interest. There are plenty of opportunities to enjoy Irish at the summer gaeltachts as I said previously. Thousands go to them each year and that speaks for itself.
4. Read the bit about Irish teachers again. - I did and I'm none the wiser. You will need to enlighten me.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118239407#Comment_118239407

@Furze99 - this "cultural hobby" moniker you attach to the language. Maybe this is how you see it. Do you not accept that this is not the case for others? Is Irish a "cultural hobby" for a native speaker? for someone married to a native speaker? just to take two examples.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246160#Comment_118246160

What exactly do people want educational Irish to acheive?

I think this is a very important question that PBH asks and our answer to this question determines a lot.

If you want more conversational Irish speakers = project failed

If you want to challenge Irish native speakers = project failed

If you want to demonstrate the parity of English and Irish in the education system as a political statement = project success.

In my opinion, the syllabus was designed for this purpose. In the same way that English syllabus gives creative and cultural appreciation so does the Irish syllabus. I don't think we can shy away from the fact that the way Irish is handled in education, was and remains a political statement.

I'm comfortable with that statement. It respects rights, it respects our history, it solidifies Irish as the national language, it respects the wishes of the people whose children are being educated here.

To those who want more conversational Irish speakers under 18 or to challenge Irish native speakers, my answer to you is encourage more gaelscoileanna, that's where their origins lie and that's what they are designed to acheive.

The school system will not save the language nor should it be expected to do so. It lays a foundation, it's up to households to take Irish to another level and unlike the Netherlands etc... we don't as a country in general place high esteem on learning any second language to next level.

That's life but let's be sure to continue supporting those who do.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254618#Comment_118254618

1 - CEFR are grades, you brought them into the conversation. I asked why.

2 - I've have conversations is several different languages I've never been graded in. How?

3 - You are staing here that kids can not learn Irish out of enjoyment. Here, we agree to disagree.

4 - Teachers deal within a syllabus. They have to act within the syllabus.

The only reason we appear to be on different wavelengths is because you keep making arguments and then not remembering them.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248183#Comment_118248183

@deirdremf and that's a gaelscoil. Spare a thought for the kids who don't even have an Irish book at primary level!

The books published by companies such as Futa Fata, Leabhair Comhar, CIC never make it into the classroom. It's such a tragedy really.

Áine Ní Ghlinn is doing her best as part of her role as Poet Laureate to challenge this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/give-our-children-the-joy-of-reading-as-gaeilge-as-well-as-as-b%C3%A9arla-this-christmas-1.4422901

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254683#Comment_118254683

If you want to demonstrate the parity of English and Irish in the education system as a political statement = project success.. 

In my opinion, the syllabus was designed for this purpose

Horrible acheievement to set for a langauge course, but it brings us full circle as this is how you define progress and this is why you say you're happy with the way things are going. End of chapter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254699#Comment_118254699

The books published by companies such as Futa Fata, Leabhair Comhar, CIC never make it into the classroom. It's such a tragedy really.

Yep, they produce stuff that is of high educational quality as well as being relatable. There's also quite an amount of teenage/YA fiction to be read that would add lots of value to the curriculum.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254628#Comment_118254628

I dunno but to draw a parallel with Irish trad music - there are many for whom this is a cultural hobby. And there are others who make a decent living out of it (in normal circumstances). So there's two examples of just this use.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254688#Comment_118254688

1. CEFR are not grades - it's a scale identifying whether a learner is Basic, Independent or Proficient in a language. My point is the same as saying - the school system alone will not create proficient lrish speakers.
2. That's great you've had conversations in different languages, depending on what type of conversation it was you were showing basic, independent or proficient skills in these languages. No "grades" required.
3. I didn't say kids cannot learn Irish out of enjoyment, sure in the same sentence didn't I just give you an example of how they can.... I'm saying they don't learn Irish out of enjoyment in general in school.
4. Yes, and? You said "noone is putting effrot into making kids enjoy it" #1278. Are the teachers themselves exempt from putting in that effort? Is that your position? Is the syllabus that "horrible", to use your word, that teachers are unable to work with it?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254709#Comment_118254709

I could ask you why you think it is "horrible" but I'll pause on that for a moment.

I'm convinced that we wouldn't be having this conversation today about Irish in schools if the syllabus had been radically altered, in fact I think it would have accelerated the decline of Irish more.

I think had an attempt been made to create a wholesale Irish language education system e.g. all schools had to teach through Irish, I think it would have been yet another form of oppression on an already oppressed society and kicked over. You only need to look at the video on Youtube about the negative attitudes to Irish in the 1970s (a lot worse than today I think) to get an idea.

I think had an attempt been made to turn Irish into a soft "friendly chat" school subject with no exam in the hope of creating more Irish speakers I think the language would be a total laughing stock at this stage and "phased out" into "shortcourses".

I think all these admirational posts about creating love and hugs for the language in schools are great but we are only having this conversation because of the pragmatic decisions that were previously made.

Even the anti-Irish brigade have to admit that Irish is here (despite what they consider to be a poor education system), it is open to all - native and non-native - and there are now proper job opportunities with Irish that didn't exist before.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246160#Comment_118246160

What exactly to people want educational Irish to achieve?

Do you wish to venture an answer to your own question PBH? I'd like to hear what you want it to achieve and how many resources would be needed to achieve it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260060#Comment_118260060

That's exactly what grades are...! - and you don't need them to have conversations in foreign langauges.

From post 1307 - "Do you accept that kids might enjoy something if you stopped grading them? No". Case closed.

Point 4 is answered in the very post you refer to: - " I'm speaking here more about the effort put into the syllabus and resources, rather than by individual teachers in classrooms."

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260259#Comment_118260259

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260284#Comment_118260284

A large number of fundtional and enthusiastic Irish-speaking students I'd have thought that's what everyone wanted until I read your post about it being to prove English and Irish are on the sme political level. God help the kids if that were the case - no wonder they're not interested.

Hotblack Desiato

Indeed - that's the problem with the Irish language in the education system - it's a political project not an educational one. Always has been.

Pragmatic decisions - that's having a laugh - it's been the complete opposite for the last 99 years.

Job opportunities - taxpayer funded make-work non-jobs don't count.

We spend well north of a billion euro every year to achieve very little. It's a scandalous waste of taxpayers' money.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261746#Comment_118261746

@Hotblack Desiato That billion euro every year you throw out there is a ridiculous exaggeration. Only those who place no value on Irish consider spending any sum of money on investment in the language a waste. Those people are a vocal minority.

There are many projects in schools that are political and educational. Bonus marks for maths is just one other example.

The opposite of pragmatic is idealistic. Do you really think that the Irish in schools programme is idealistic? Why are the idealists not inspired by it then?

There are job opportunites as I said and have detailed previously, you're not interested enough to look obviously. We're no longer in 1970.