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Traffic Congestion.

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    That 30% is amazing.

    We live 1km from the local school.

    At least half the estate drive their kids to the school.

    There's a ginormous footpath and cycle lane with zebra crossings at every junction.

    My mother also lives 1km from the national school. Nice wide path to it. In the countyside. Nobody walks/cycles to that school. Nobody!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    If the luas was tunnelled it wouldn't have happened.

    People throw this idea of tunnelling and undergrounds around as if it's a panacea.


    The costs are staggering. There's a reason a single leg of "Metrolink" to the airport is forecast at €10billion!!!!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,890 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    regarding my comment about the capacity of the luas - at peak, the luas runs ~20 times an hour and the new large trams have a capacity of 408. so that's a capacity of 8,160 per hour, in each direction.

    if you take the M50, and (i know! naive assumption alert) assume that everyone drives with a 2 second gap to the vehicle in front, taking 4 lanes (not just the typical 3 lanes), the M50 has a capacity of 7,200 vehicles per hour in each direction.

    so in terms of moving people, the luas is vastly more efficient than even a motorway, given the amount of space those 4 lanes of motorway take up to be able to move that many vehicles.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,890 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The costs are staggering. There's a reason a single leg of "Metrolink" to the airport is forecast at €10billion!!!!

    and i think that's a daily mail, 'let's pluck a large number out of the air' figure too, no?



  • Posts: 693 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What is it that you expect drivers to do in all honesty?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    The notion more lanes or stacked roads on top of each other solves congestion has been disproven world over.


    Solving congestion means removing cars from the road removing cars from the road will involve many approaches there is no magic gun. That also includes incentives via free parking at dedicated terminus for public transport external to the city. But also punitive costs to enter the city. Amongst many other things



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Was he driving a Tesla ? it's bad form but at least the car has some form of automation, imagine in cars that have no form of automation ? I see this daily, maybe not watching Netflix but regularly on their phone looking down because the phone is on their lap as if it wasn't obvious. The amount of road not seen in just 2 seconds at 80Km/hr and more is really a lot but this isn't taken into consideration.

    My car almost drives me to work, it keeps in lane, accelerates and brakes etc but I'm always prepared for the unexpected as these are driving aids not replacements, it has made a huge difference to my commute though.



  • Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Incentives for electric cars to cause traffic is so hilarious. reduce tolls, get more of them on the motorways. Low tax, get more of them on the roads. Freedom to use bus lanes (desired) get slower busses. All slowing traffic, causes more time and more fuel use


    If they want cleaner air and less traffic, they are going about it all wrong



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    Yep.

    Impossible price a job before it's designed.

    But AFAIK Jacobs are designing it these days so there should be some some of estimate


    But to put the luas underground would cost a multiple of the 10 billion



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,122 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I don't get your logic.

    If someone is managing without a car, an expensive electric car isn't any incentive to get a car.

    However if you have a car, switching to an EV will only suit some people. We are well behind most of EU for EVs adoption and costs.

    We are pretty bad when it comes to clean air and traffic. Through EVs will help. But that's we are still thinking like it's the 1970s when it comes to cars.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Is the 8160 (20*408) looking at one direction only meaning a potential for over 16k per hour?



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,890 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yes, one direction only. please feel free to sanity test my figures though!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I missed your "in each direction" bit - figured are fine



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,890 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    as i mentioned earlier in the thread, if you filled the M50 with stationary cars along its 3 lane length, using all 4 lanes, allowing 5m per car - you'd get fewer than 50,000 cars on it. that's 8 lanes for about 30km, filled with cars. you'd need 11 M50s to park up all the cars in dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,213 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    vast majority of people that had access to a car but used buses / trains or Luas for say convenience to get to work faster, the environment or whatever.... will have been back into a car as a result of covid...

    last three months I’ve noticed a serious upsurge in traffic congestion around here and also on the regular trips I make weekly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    It takes cash and a leap card... no credit or debit card. Its nearly 2022... I mean other countries have only had it for decades...


    For a country that is an IT hub. It's truly bizarre, how backwards this place is...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    I don't recall any city where the bus service allows users to pay by credit card on the bus itself - New York, London, Paris, Madrid all require you to top up a pre-paid card (at least they did when I was last there).



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Benefit in kind on parking space is madness for people who have to drive their cars. Driving is already taxed too much as it is.



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  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They're not incentivising electric cars to get traffic on the road, they're doing it to get ICE cars off the road but in order to do this properly no ICE car that is traded for an EV in say more than 5 years old should be scrapped and not allowed on the road again.

    Of course that's just my opinion.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    How will electric cars reduce traffic congestion?



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Never said they'd reduce congestion but the idea is if someone is buying new then EV offers a much lower emissions alternative than diesel, much less actual pollution with 30% of electricity from renewables it's a step in the right direction + electrics use their energy much more efficiently than ICE cars.

    If they really want to lower emissions then the old car traded in shouldn't be allowed back on the road and there should be a proper scrappage system for 10+ year old cars, especially diesels which are the most polluting.

    Reducing cars on the road won't happen without proper subway system and proper dart like services, not a slow luas that has to stop at junctions and crawls along.

    There's only road links to industrial estates, so those commuting would have to take trains or bus to the city then get another 1-2 buses or more to get to work with anything up to a 3 hr commute isn't practical, then standing on the wind and rain is also not appealing without proper shelter.

    We're decades away from a proper public transport system. Not even Naas has any form of rail link ffs, that could be put on stilts over the N7, 2 tracks each side and frequent high speed rail to the city. A proper park and ride there around naas would be an idea. Would take huge volumes of traffic off the N7 if the M7/M9 traffic had a rail link from Naas. They could extend this further down to Newbridge/Carlow etc eventually. Then link up the Business parks along the M50 North and South.

    Probably 50-100 years away given the progress with public transport in Ireland. My guess is that a proper subway in Dublin is probably minimum of half a Centaury away. This isn't even in the thoughts of Government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Your subway and train won't drop you to your industrial estate though. Probably even far more removed than a bus.

    There's a fanciful notion spending billions on a subway will solve Dublin's issues. That money would be better sent on commuter belt free parking and subsidised regular tracked frequent bus services. Make it convenient and easy . Make it easier than the alternative of stress driving into an expensive no car city



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,890 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    in the short term, no. but why shouldn't we flip it and ask why we can't be building those destinations along railway routes? why shouldn't you be able to get a rail option to your industrial estates and business parks?

    a lot of that is due to the fact that we ripped up a huge proportion of our rail lines.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Never said they'd reduce congestion but the idea is if someone is buying new then EV offers a much lower emissions alternative than diesel, much less actual pollution with 30% of electricity from renewables it's a step in the right direction + electrics use their energy much more efficiently than ICE cars.


    If they really want to lower emissions then the old car traded in shouldn't be allowed back on the road and there should be a proper scrappage system for 10+ year old cars, especially diesels which are the most polluting.

    If the ambition is to discourage the purchase of new ICE based cars then they could whack up the VRT on them and also increase motor tax.

    There should not be incentives for electric cars though. Incentives should be used to encourage the use of public transport and active travel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Why would one particular BIK not be taxed the same as the others?

    Driving clearly needs to be made more expensive in order to discourage people from doing so much of it; if petrol were twice as expensive, people might think twice about using a one-tonne machine to go a few hundred metres down the road in order to pick up a loaf of bread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Need to resolve funding the commutes into city at the same time. Can't just tax and offer no equivalent solutions...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    what you incentivise should be based on a strategic policy .. and you can have more than one strategic policy at a time. Incentivising EVs should help the transition from burning fossil fuels as part of personal transportation which is a strategy that is needed. While separately the incentivising of public transport will encourage more people out of single vehicle commuting. Both can operate together - so no need to pitch one against the other.

    The tax saver / bike to work schemes are examples of incentivising of non car related commuting - you can argue the merits or failures of each incentive. But they are there in order to encourage more people to leave the car at home.

    Realistically a massive proportion of people who are on the M50 each morning do not have an alternative - otherwise they wouldn't be there. I know this from experience. If like me who spent the guts of 15 years working in Ballymount ... buses were not an option. I was coming from the M1 .. if I were to do it by bus / train .. I'd have to drive to bus station .. 45 mins on bus .. change in City Centre and another 45-60 mins out to Ballymount. There was no alternative but to go via the city centre. As bad as the M50 was - 1h20-1h45 hours average commute was a superior option to similar if not more jumping between buses / trains and the expense of it. Fuel / tolls were cheaper than commuting.

    This is why I am looking at this problem from a different angle .... get people out of the city .. fundamentally change how we work ... COVID proved that a huge portion of the working population could do so without having to arrive at the same locations at the same time as everyone else every day. Even if 30% of commuters didn't have to at a desk in the greater Dublin area for 9am each day suddenly the massive need to invest in more roads, bus lanes, parking etc would be reduced

    Taxing / charging people who have no alternative isn't a sustainable solution to a problem ... as with most things in life it is about supply and demand. Reduce the demand for rush hour traffic and the supply will look after it self



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭SupplyandDemandZone


    I can jump in my car and be in work in just over an hour. Public transport would take me circa 2hrs i know this because ive done it a few times i'd need a bus then a train then another bus. It's also cheaper to drive my car. On occasion i use my motorbike and im in work in 25 mins.

    Until they price me off the road i won't changing and at that stage i'll be retired anyway.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,890 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    maybe you should canvass your local TDs for better public transport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    There you go, @listermint


    Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about people commuting living in Carlow and Cavan, and commuting into Dublin every day - presumably these people made the (perfectly rational) decision that they would be able to move to a bigger house in the countryside, and have the rest of society pay the price in terms of increased emissions, particulate matter, congestion, and noise pollution in urban areas on foot of this decision.

    This is a fairly recent phenomenon that is being treated as some sort of inalienable right; it seems bizarre to me as an Dublin taxpayer that people living in outside the capital, whose bucolic lifestyle is already subsidised by urban taxpayers to a large degree, are now asking for extra lanes on the M50 in order that we can pay more money to facilitate them congesting and polluting the place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    I agree with this totally. But the government are junkies on the revenue it brings in... this is what makes it such a farce, I've been saying it for years. New petrol and diesel sales, should have way higher vrt or motor tax I'd actually be in favour of banning new diesel sales by 2025...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,292 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Traffic congestion is a good thing. If roads are empty people will think they're in a communist bloc country and that the economy is doing bad. If the roads are all clogged with people stressed and blowing their horns they'll think they're in New York and things are fantastic. This will cause them to spend more in the shop meaning more and better paid resale jobs selling Chinese sh1te for all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    That is a sentiment that is worthy of a caller to Joe Duffy really.

    Ireland is a small island .. Dublin is the capital city and the ‘managers’ of Dublin City have refused over generations to actually allow enough homes to be built in the greater Dublin area … so in order to have the workforce to keep Dublin going people have been forced to commute further …. You know to staff the hospitals, Garda stations, supermarkets and those shiny office buildings …. So if you want Dublin to be self contained … be prepared to leave the office at 5pm and put on a pair of scrubs and get down to the Mater to give a dig out as a nurse in the evening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 187 ✭✭sergioaguero


    the train is a great service and goes right into the city, only problem is its a complete rip off so would turn you off using it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Why should employers subsidise a subset of their employees (generally a better-off, higher-paid subset) with a benefit of significant value when no equivalent benefit is available to those who walk, cycle or use public transport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    'Free parking' isn't free. Someone has to pay for the cost of providing the space and managing the facility.

    Why should society as a whole be paying for the parking facilities that only benefit a select group - motorists?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The 'don't have an alternative' point isn't supported by the evidence that shows that a large percentage of car journeys are for distances that are easily walked or cycled, <4km.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    can you quote this 'evidence' that refutes my point that the large majority of those on the M50 have alternatives that are not easily walked or cycled?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I can quote the evidence that confirms that large numbers of car journeys are distances that are easily walked or cycled;

    Traffic congestion does go beyond the M50.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Any meaningful infrastructure development is pie in the sky stuff. The only thing that will improve matters is permanent working from home for a substantial segment of the workforce. The government will cop on to that eventually and incentivise it appropriately.

    cheaper to give grants to companies to develop their communications infrastructure than to build an underground or network of flyovers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    That's the point I'm making .. those on the m50 don't have alternatives ... but no excuse for using the car in the city centre the majority of the time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Very simply because we are burdening that cost today in congestion.

    Amusing response though. You seem to think workers are just created from trees .. or maybe grown in a field ?..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Not just a city centre issue - fair bit of scope for cycling to cover journeys of two junctions and eBikes for longer journeys there;

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/m50-to-become-a-managed-motorway-in-major-changes-in-response-to-traffic-volumes-1.4676155

    "TII said the typical trip for a regular M50 road user was less than two junctions. Some 44 per cent of M50 trips are less than 20km in distance, while 70 per cent are less than 30km."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So because we've made the mistake in the past of creating car-centric policies that don't work, we should now continue to throw money and resources at the problem, instead of focusing on public transport? Drivers need to start paying for their own storage spaces.

    Amusing that you seem to think workers = motorists?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    Totally missing the point ... the m50 is a ring road ... a typical commute would entail 5-10km along the m50. And the majority of these drivers would have a multiple of that distance before getting to the m50 ... and again very few would be going in to the city. The notion that cycling the m59 route is a valid option is just that .. a notion !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    And lots of those journeys would have shorter, more direct routes available for cycling, when you don't have to worry about sitting in traffic.

    Yes, there are lots of people on the M50 who don't have a whole lot of other choices today. There's also a bunch of them on the M50 because they've never given serious consideration to any commute method that didn't involve driving around with four empty seats all day wondering where all the road space has gone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,122 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    and/or they make it so the car takes 3 times as long as other means. :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    Those who have other viable options would be negligible on the m50 .. vast majority are commuting from suburbs to industrial parks ... so unless you have a circular public transport system you are pissing against the wind.


    anyway .. the bones of my point still stand that if we can remove 30% of these commuters out of rush hour through smarter / flexible working most of the woes of congestion will be eliminated



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